LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
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Magic and Bird both had stacked teams given to them anyways. Bad example. Keep crying and posting nonsense for hours a day because the general consensus is that the guy you hate so much is one of the greatest athletes to ever live.
Bird and Magic were the top 2 players and producers in the league, which is the same as Lebron & Wade in 2010.. But I suppose Jokic and SGA would be a better example especially since they're in the same conference like Lebron/Wade.. Lebron started winning his conference a bunch when he teamed up with the best player in his conference and then arguably the 3rd best as well.. Then people call Lebron goat based on this manufactured streak of Finals.. Of course this need to manufacture results from a skill deficit or inability to develop great chemistry, thereby needing more talent (more help), aka talent-based winning/all-star team strategy.. Regardless, an inability to compete on the championship level (lottery record) surely confirms Lebron's inferior brand of ball, but no - the championship record is now ignored.
Kobe gets a pass for having a couple of seasons where he took 20 shots a game at 35% for teams that won 20 games a year. Yeah bro making the conference finals is way worse.
Jordan gets a pass for his Wizards years. Curry lost to LeBron and needed Durant to come join him. Your hate is comical.
Everyone has bad teams that win 35-45 games like 19' Lebron, 08' Lebron, and 05/06 Kobe.
No one cares what happens with these low seeds or lottery teams.. They always lose.
The issue is what happens once all-star help arrives, which means that Kobe/Lebron/Jordan will produce high seeds and favorites.. This is where Lebron fails by losing as the favorite (09-11') and having record loss or sweep in "toss-up" series (14', 23', 17').. Lebron was also lottery in his prime (19').
Regarding Curry needing Durant - the entire league needed someone to do something to stop the unprecedented advantage Lebron enjoyed for 6 straight years as the preseason favorite (11-16') and the only team with 3 franchise players on 1 team (super-team).. No other team had 2 franchise guys, let alone 3 guys plucked from 3 different teams..
Curry has also proved his superiority to Lebron by winning with secondary producers at sidekick like Klay or perennial loser like Wiggins, instead of elite-producers and franchise guys like Wade, AD or Kyrie.. Curry could win with less help because he could carry the scoring load by maintaining brand of ball at high scoring volume.. Otoh, Lebron is too ball-dominant at carry-job volume to beat top teams, so he can't carry the scoring load and needs all-time scoring help.. This is why he never carried weak help over top teams (never beat top 5 SRS opponent with weak scoring & efficiency from sidekick) and he never carried scoring load on championship level (never defeated max defensive attention).
Mental gymnastics and posting backflips that land square on one’s head itt.
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After they both made the 2005 all-star team, Lebron and Zydrunas acquired a HOF coach (Mike Brown) and player that was better than 1990 Pippen on both sides of the ball:
05' HUGHES......... 21.6 PER... 4.3 BPM... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP.... 22/6/5... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN........... 16.3 PER... 1.8 BPM... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP.... 16/6/5... No All-D
Jordan would obviously 3-peat with that.. The reason Lebron failed with Hughes is because it was a horrible fit just like Lebron-Westbrook... Hughes cratered alongside Lebron.
Of course it's bball 101 that bad fits = skill deficit.... i.e. spotty-shooting ball-handlers like Lebron, Hughes, Westbrook, or Ingram need great shooters around them and therefore don't fit with each other.
The first time in Lebron's career that he had a low seed was 2021, and he lost in the 1st Round.. The 2nd time that he had a low seed was 2024, he lost in the 1st Round again... So low seeds lose because they normally don't have any all-star help or good experienced roster.. This is why no one cares that Lebron only won 45 games with a Year 5 team in 2008 (past Big Z's prime) - he had no all-star help that year, but then he got the all-star spacer that his stiff-arm needs to win 60 and MVP in 09' (or 13').. Night and day..
Unfortunately, he's too ball-dominant at carry-job volume to beat top teams, so he lost to Dwight in the ECF as one of the biggest favorites to ever lose a playoff series.. The Magic had no homecourt and a massive injury excuse.... but WON.
Of course the reason that Lebron didn't have low seeds until so late in his career was because he got 3 years to develop a veteran, high seed before entering his first playoffs in 06'.. People forget that Lebron and Zydrunas were not all-stars in 04' but became all-stars in 05' - this represents significant growth... Then the all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas added a HOF coach in 06' and an acquisition that was playing better than 90' Pippen on both sides of the ball (shown in previous post).. The high seeded status and veteran team is why his early playoff record is better than Jordan, who didn't get 3 years to develop his team and was thrown into the playoff right away.
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My god Hughes was a trash player that had 1 decent year
The same could be said for Pippen's playoff career - 1 good run in 91' and then he wet the bed every other year..
Hughes actually had 2 good years and was coming into his own alongside an off-guard and expert jumpshooter like Arenas, but then he predictably cratered alongside a spotty-shooting ball-dominator like Lebron, who turned him into a spot-up shooter.. Spotty-shooting ball-handlers like Lebron, Hughes, Westbrook, or Ingram need great shooters around them and therefore don't fit with each other.
Btw, Pippen did infact wet the bed for every other playoff run of his career outside of 91... This includes the infamous X-Man debacle in the 92' ECSF that nearly caused massive upset loss - X-Man dominated Pippen in that series and he was intimidating Pippen in Game 7 before MJ stepped up to X-Man, which prevented Pippen from having another "migraine" like 1990 (shown above).. So the 92' run was tarnished by this massive choke, while the the 93' Playoffs was the lowest combination of PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48, and TS for a winning sidekick since the 3-point line was instituted - Pippen averaged 15 on 33% against Dominique in the 1st Round, while shooting 0% on threes and 59% on FT"s in the Finals (46.9 TS).. So again, the 90', 92' and 93' runs were tarnished by massive choking, while Pippen averaged 17.6 on 40.8% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs and 18 on 32% in 99'.. Then he aveaged 10 ppg in the 00-03' Playoffs, while also choking in the 94' Playoffs and getting outplayed by Ewing.
So Pippen's playoff career was equal to Andre Iguodala or Jaden McDaniels or something, but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and media accolade.. You guys just use his 91' run the same way I use Hughes.
Hughes was a coveted free agent and expected to be the "pippen" to Lebron's "jordan":
So the point remains that Lebron had 3 years to develop his team into a favored high seed before entering his 1st playoffs in 06', while MJ didn't get 3 years to develop his team and was thrown into the playoffs in Year 1 as a low seed.. This explains the difference in their early playoff records since Lebron had veteran high seeds with all-star help, HOF coaching and great defensive help, while MJ had rookie low seeds and lottery casts..
Btw, the "3 years of development" that Lebron got before entering his first playoffs includes Lebron and Zydrunas becoming all-stars in 05', while also acquiring a HOF coach and guy that was playing better than 90' Pippen on both sides of the ball (hughes).. MJ didn't have 3 years to develop this kind of all-star help, HOF coaching and veteran leadership (such as an all-defensive backcourt like Hughes/Snow who were playoff or Finals veterans - Snow was starting PG alongside Iverson in 01').
2009 MO WILLIAMS........ 17.2 PER... 2.3 BPM... 3.1 VORP... 0.165 WS/48...,,.. #3 team defense
1990 PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 1.8 BPM... 3.0 VORP... 0.087 WS/48..... #19 team defense
^^^ 09' Cavs superior on both sides of the ball than the 90' Bulls... 😆
So the 2009 Cavs were superior on both ends of the floor than the 1990 Bulls, yet Jordan still beat Lebron to titles by winning in 91', while Lebron kept losing as the favorite for 2 more years.. Lebron lost as the favorite despite adding Jamison/Shaq to a 66-win league favorite or forming a super-team - he took the top 3 first options in the conference and put them on 1 team, yet still lost as the favorite to a 1-star team in 2011.
Lebron teaming up with Wade is like Jokic teaming up with SGA, so Lebron started winning his conference a bunch when he teamed up with the best player in his conference and then arguably the 3rd best as well.. Amazingly, people call Lebron goat based on this manufactured streak of Finals..
Of course this need to manufacture a resume results from a skill deficit or inability to develop great chemistry, thereby needing more talent (more help), aka talent-based winning/all-star team strategy.. Regardless, an inability to compete on the championship level (lottery record) surely confirms Lebron's inferior brand of ball, but no - the championship record is now ignored and considered irrelevant. It's amazing and sheer fraud by Klutch media,
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Historical Record - the foul on Hubert Davis:
^^^ that's the image that results from the actual play which is shown below - this angle is only shown on the local New York broadcast:
Hubie Brown circles the foul on the telestrator:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3FbvWSZQk...
case closed - Pippen choked in the "sit out" game where Kukoc hit the game winner and then the "dumb foul" game on Hubert Davis and then horrible game 7 and many other chokes horrible chokes in between like 3.0 on 20% in the 4th quarter thru 5 games (stats here).
Pippen was never a "franchise player" that was required to build anything, and instead he was handed the keys to the most well-oiled machine ever in 94'.. It wasn't remotely surprising that once opponents woke up in the playoffs, Pippen was exposed and the "real" Bulls without MJ were borderline .500 in 95' before MJ returned.. It's intuitive that any team with Pippen as the best scorer will fall out of contention QUICKLY due to lack of talent, and this includes 3-peat dynasties as we saw in 95'.
I looked up the dream team stats. Jordan had the lowest FG% in the team, and the lowest 3FG% on the team, and led the team in turnovers. He was basically the brick chucker on a team carried by Barkley, Drexler, and Chris Mullins, with solid play from Karl Malone, Scottie Pippen, David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, and Magic Johnson.
If you just listened to Jordan nostalgia you'd think he was just 360 dunking over everyone all game, but the stats tell a different story. 45% from the field and 21% from 3. Actually pretty shocking.
It actually looks like that team would've dominated more without him.
Making the Finals is conference-dependent because I'm pretty sure that the 14' Heat or 07' Cavs wouldn't make the Finals in the West, which is why only winning the Finals matters - this proves you beat the entire league and weren't just a top 4'ish team that happened to be in the right conference..
History shows that Lebron started winning his conference a bunch when he teamed up with the next-best player in his conference and then arguably the 3rd best as well.. Amazingly, people call Lebron the goat based on this manufactured streak of Finals - he won the conference by diluting it and consolidating power on 1 team.. People forget that in 2010, Wade was the #2 producer in the league based on PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48, etc, so Lebron's team-up with him is like Jokic teaming up with SGA.. .
Ultimately, the entire league needed someone to do something to stop the unprecedented advantage Lebron enjoyed as the preseason favorite for 6 straight years (11-16') and the only team with 3 franchise players on 1 team (super-team).. No other team had 2 franchise guys, let alone 3 guys plucked from 3 different teams.. KD's only mistake was waiting 6 years to respond and letting his primary rival manufacture a resume.
We need more posts itt about the greatest basketball player OAT.
Spoiler
Elon Musk
AERWINS
FACTS
Off-the-Charts PER
Elon's PER (Productivity Efficiency Rating) is so high it broke the scale. While other players are putting up double-doubles, Elon's putting up double and triple companies. His ability to efficiently produce results across multiple industries translates directly to dominating every aspect of the game.
Unmatched Vertical Leap
Players like MJ can jump high, but can they launch themselves into actual space? SpaceJam wasn't real. Elon's work with SpaceX proves he has a vertical leap measured in miles, not inches. Dunking from free throw lines? Child's play for a man who can dunk from orbit.
Revolutionary Court Vision
While other players see a few seconds into the future, Elon sees decades ahead. His Tesla Autopilot technology translates directly to the hardwood, allowing him to anticipate plays before they even begin. He's basically precognitive on the court.
Out of this world chemistry
Elon's team chemistry is unparalleled. Everyone loves him, and those who don't get fired on the spot. Elon's background in physics and engineering means he understands chemistry on a molecular level. He doesn't just raise the performance of his teammates; he fundamentally alters their atomic structure to create superhuman players.
The Anti-Pippen Principle
While other so-called "greats" relied on sidekicks like Scottie Pippen, Elon knew better. He recognized early on that Pippen was so detrimental to team success that he refused to even step on the same court. This move saved his hypothetical team from years of mediocrity and proved his superior basketball intellect.
Master of the Pump Fake
Have you seen how he moves stock prices with a single tweet? That's the ultimate pump fake, leaving financial defenders stumbling while he glides to the basket (or Mars).
Unbeatable Endurance
Most players get tired after 48 minutes. Elon works 100-hour weeks while running multiple companies. He could easily play a full NBA season without breaking a sweat.
Next-Level Trash Talk
Why settle for ordinary trash talk when you can buy the entire trash-talking platform? His acquisition of Twitter proves he's the undisputed king of getting in opponents' heads.
Game-Changing Innovation
While other players are working on their crossover, Elon is crossing over between dimensions. He's probably already invented a quantum basketball that can be in multiple hoops simultaneously.
It's time we recognize the true GOAT of basketball. Elon may have never stepped foot on an NBA court, but that's only because he's playing 5D interdimensional basketball while the rest of us are stuck in 3D. With his otherworldly PER, team-elevating chemistry, and the wisdom to avoid the Pippen curse, Elon has slam-dunked his way into basketball immortality. Case closed, game over, Elon wins. Lock up this thread.
5 star post!
I linked your post smartDFS into the OP for all to enjoy.
I looked up the dream team stats. Jordan had the lowest FG% in the team, and the lowest 3FG% on the team, and led the team in turnovers. He was basically the brick chucker on a team carried by Barkley, Drexler, and Chris Mullins, with solid play from Karl Malone, Scottie Pippen, David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, and Magic Johnson.
If you just listened to Jordan nostalgia you'd think he was just 360 dunking over everyone all game, but the stats tell a different story. 45% from the field and 21%
Mj had 4 steal per game .
Most of been boosted stats too like in the nba by the analytics guy.
Yes mj led the team with 1 tov per game , .3 more then 2 other player at 1.0 tov ….shockingly bad 0o…
Fwiw mj was shooting .500 without the 3s .
Obv he could have played better .
His 2 point fg% was also the lowest on the team, while taking more shots than anyone. Dream team would've dominated just as much or possibly more without him.
MJ was my favorite player of that era, just pointing out something that I saw in those stats. Nobody ever looks at those stats, and I think the rose coloured nostalgia lens makes us expect that Jordan was the number 1 dominator on that team, but he really wasn't. People think of it as the Jordan/Magic/Bird team but if anything it was really the Barkley/Mullins/Malone team.
His 2 point fg% was also the lowest on the team, while taking more shots than anyone. Dream team would've dominated just as much or possibly more without him.
MJ was my favorite player of that era, just pointing out something that I saw in those stats. Nobody ever looks at those stats, and I think the rose coloured nostalgia lens makes us expect that Jordan was the number 1 dominator on that team, but he really wasn't. People think of it as the Jordan/Magic/Bird team but if anything it was
well i dont think he really went in the paint much right with the front court he had ?
so yes as a shooting guard he should had lower %FG but still .500 without the 3s aint bad at all.
but truthfully i dont really remember those olympic games and how it went beside they crushed it of course.
we all know mj at that time was untouchable, played golf all day before playing and i think he just went there to have some fun.
He could of done much better for sure but maybe he just let the spot light to some as well.
Seem he really went mj mode in practice instead lol.
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seem the only game he was really into it was vs crotia for obvious reason and he did deliver 😀...
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Charles Barkley was beast mode in the Olympics. I've never heard it mentioned but he was almost certainly the MVP of both the 92 team and the 96 team.
Also noteworthy if you look at the 2008 and 2012 teams LeBron was a far more valuable player than Kobe, as expected, and it's not even close.
Magic and Bird both had stacked teams given to them anyways. Bad example. Keep crying and posting nonsense for hours a day because the general consensus is that the guy you hate so much is one of the greatest athletes to ever live.
Jokic is the #1 dominator in the league based on PER, BPM, VORP, and WS/48, so he must team-up with the #2 dominator (Giannis or SGA) to match Lebron/Wade, who were #1 and #2 across the board in 2010.
Again, Lebron started winning his conference a bunch when he teamed up with the next-best player in his conference and then arguably the 3rd best as well.. Amazingly, people call Lebron the goat based on this manufactured streak of Finals, done in plain view - he won the conference by diluting it and consolidating power on 1 team.
Again, Jokic would never get credit for GOAT if he did this, but he doesn't have Klutch Sports spewing this garbage on mainstream outlets for casuals to lap it up.
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Kobe gets a pass for having a couple of seasons where he took 20 shots a game at 35% for teams that won 20 games a year. Yeah bro making the conference finals is way worse.
Jordan gets a pass for his Wizards years. Curry lost to LeBron and needed Durant to come join him. Your hate is comical.
Curry, Kobe and Lebron all had many bad losses with good rosters and all-star help, but Curry/Kobe are better than Lebron because they produce higher team peaks, chemistry and "unbeatable" teams that mostly win for stretches, which yields higher long-run title equity than "bron-ball" mostly losing regardless of cast and unable to compete on the championship level (lottery record in Finals)..
And of course MJ is better than everyone because he basically didn't lose with good rosters and had the highest peaks from a team or individual standpoint of the modern era, while being undefeated on the championship level.
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Is the implication that you think you would be in the greatest-player-of-all-time conversation without the injury problems?
Jo-el Embuust: I think so. I think I’m that talented.
embuuuuuust thinks he da goat lmao
makes us expect that Jordan was the number 1 dominator on that team, but he really wasn't. .
Only because the team didn't need him to be
Otoh, the 1992 1st Round was against an abysmal opponent (Miami Heat), yet the Bulls needed MJ to get 45 ppg to sweep them as was expected and not show weakness as the defending champs..
Otoh, only 15 ppg or whatever was necessary on the Dream Team to beat opponents by 40 ppg without taking timeouts.. Literally zero challenge for MJ, which is probably why he didn't bother compete in 96'.
The current Dream Team has less athleticism and power, so they run out of athletes to matchup with the original Dream Team:
Embiid............... Robinson
AD...................... Ewing
Lebron............... Jordan
Ant..................... Drexler
Bam................... Pippen
N/A................... Malone
N/A................... Barkley
Non-MVP's like Booker and Tatum are the next-best athletes to matchup with MVP's Malone/Barkley
Meanwhile - Magic, Bird, Mullin and Stockton match up well with Curry, KD, Haliburton and Holiday, but again, the original Dream Team has a couple extra MVP's in Barkley and Malone that the current team cannot match athletically or dominance-wise.. That's a big talent gap.
Of course, previous eras were accustomed to playing a format that had less spacing, packed paints and more physicality, which is closer to the international format and requires the kind of fundamentals and 5-man basketball skills that today's drive-and-kick spammer lacks.
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Could "genius IQ" Lebron win MVP with just 15 ppg?
Of course not . Intelligence is only valued in whites like Steve Nash, so he can get MVP with 15 ppg because he's intelligent and that offsets the lack of scoring
It took one of the most uniquely-charismatic black people (Magic) to have people value his intelligence..
Otherwise, of you're black, you need to average about 30 and it helps if you're super-fancy and can put on your dancin' shoes like Harden.. And get to the dancin' for these white folk
White folks love to see a ***** dancin'
