Bobby's Breakroom - for gaming employee chatter + YTF appreciation. See restrictions in Post #1

This reminds me countless times a big blind not paying attention will (in turn) fold when there were no preflop raises. What do all of you do when this happens (and I know it happens a lot)?

I usually give it back, the guy usually gets a look like "whoops, yeah I'll keep these then," and the hand goes on without any controversy.
Sometimes the guy insists that it's a fold. I admire that actually, like this hand is so crap I won't even play it for free.

(As an aside, I cannot recall a single case where someone who tried to fold but I gave them the cards back won the pot, certainly nothing substantial. It's like garbage hands rarely win. I wind up saying "You were right the first time" when they fold to a bet.)

Have I just been lucky all these years? Is it possible that someone will start screaming at me that the player folded and I should just muck the cards and how dare I give the player the cards back? (If I were a floor person and that was brought to me, I would tell the guy if he wanted the BB to fold he should have raised.)

Give me stories and make me change my mind about giving the hand back to the player when this happens!

I will muck it 99% of the time, with the only exception being they are money behind and don't have the ability to put the blind out.

I have seen this blow up before. I'm not rewarding oblivious players anymore. I say it before I deal, as I pass with card one, and as I pass with card two. Three strikes, you're out.

Thanks, but I don't mean when players don't put the blinds out. The situation with the guy folding out of turn because he wasn't paying attention reminded me of the scenario of a big blind folding in turn when nobody raised.

Fair point!

I don't then either, though. It's not really different to me. Not trying to instamuck, but it's going at regular speed. Their priority may not be the action, but it is usually everyone else's.

Pay attention or pay money.

Whenever I accidentally do that, I grab my hand back and point at it saying "not Aces".

Often I even say that when someone else does it, but only if it's a friendly game.

Dealers at most casinos are more than just poker dealers. The casino will say they are in the customer service business. Maybe at something like the WSOP they might just be considered card dealers and nothing more, but most casinos want their dealers acknowledging and helping out customers when they see an issue. That is simply good customer service. When I nod to seat 8, I don't think it is going to be any bigger deal than a simple nod and moving on.

That isn't just good customer service, that is just being a nice person. Who wouldn't help get the attention of someone who was distracted? That is just being a nice person.

Finally, my helping seat 8 didn't affect anything with the blinds. They were distracted until I pounded on the table in front of them. The floor was called only because seat 9 was a professional a-hole looking to irritate others whenever he could.

This is a big depends.

The casino I currently work at considers themselves to be very newbie friendly so as a dealer I might put some effort into letting the big blind know he can play for free instead of folding. The way of doing this can vary greatly.

Sometimes it can be as simple as finding something to distract me for a few seconds to give the BB time to realize they can pull their cards back and check. Other times I might even openly ask the big blind if they are folding when they can check. It depends upon the player and the table. If it is clearly a new player, I will give them much more leeway.

Obviously tournaments are different. There is a different standard there.

That said, while I can understand mucking a big blind who folds when not facing a raise, there is also some stuff in the TDA about giving players warnings when they fold facing no action. Do dealers who insta muck big blind hands who fold also call over the floor to give them a warning? Seems way overly harsh.

I ask this because it caused some problems in our casino a few months back.

For whatever reason in our daily tournaments there was a rash of players who would fold when facing no action post flop. Six players to a limped flop, the small blind would open fold on a 9 Q A board when holding 54 offsuit. They wanted to get back to their phone.

Management wanted to crack down on this (rightly so since it was happening far too much in tournaments). The problem was they didn't restrict their crackdown to just tournaments.

They wanted to enforce warnings and penalties to players who folded when not facing a raise in cash games as well. As a reminder, we consider ourselves a newbie friendly poker room. As a result, we had more then a few instances of newbie players get double embarrassed. Not only would they fold their big blind to no raise and be embarrassed when other players would explain they could have checked, they would also have to suffer the embarrassment of having the floor come over and warn them not to do it again or there would be penalties. It was stupid.

Luckily it was short lived. The crackdown was emphasized in tournaments and cash games (especially with newbies) was loosened to understand that it would happen.

Here is my all-time favorite story regarding the big blind folding when they could have checked.

The Sahara used to have a weird mixed game that ran on Friday nights ( I think...). It was $3/$6 limit and it was all sorts of crazy mixed games. One night I was playing in it just getting exposure to crazy games. There was a 5 card draw game (I don't remember which one but it wasn't important) there was a couple of limps, the small blind folds and them the big blind throws his cards forward (folding) despite being able to check.

The dealer hesitates, everyone at the table us buzzing because they think the big blind folded. After a second or two of thinking, the dealer pulls all of the money in and tosses 5 new cards to the big blind. Everyone at the table starts to raise their voice to complain and the dealer immediately speaks up and says the big blind couldn't fold so clearly he was looking to draw 5 new cards. Everyone thinks for a second and nods and shuts up. Great response by the dealer. 100% legal and accurate.

Great story by itself but here is where it gets better.

Just a few weeks later I am dealing a $100/$200 mixed game. I was an experienced dealer overall, but at the time I had very little mixed game experience (that is why I was playing in the crappy Sahara game, i needed to learn). So I would make lots of mistakes. Most were small mistakes that I caught myself as I was making them, but still. I wasn't a good mixed game dealer yet at all. Far too many mistakes.

So anyway, it is Triple Draw. There are two limps and it folds to the big blind who is engrossed in watching something on his phone. I tap the table in front of him and say action is on him. He tosses his cards forward. I let them sit and bring in the money. The other two players then declare how many they are drawing. I toss the first five cards to the big blind. Everyone starts to complain that I am messing up ( as usual since I was messing up a lot).

I stop them and explain that the big blind can't fold to no raise so obviously he is drawing 5 cards. They all stop and think for a second. Everyone collectively nods and I finish dealing the draws.

For 10 seconds I felt like the smartest person in the world.

I am sure I effed up a burn card or a something shortly after that, but it was a good 10 seconds.

Main Event .. PokerGo stream .. folds to Blinds .. SB (who probably wanted to raise) 'Calls' with a single silent over-sized chip .. Dealer says 'call'

BB looks at cards and tosses forward .. UTG says 'Wait, he thought it was a raise' .. Dealer holds cards and calls Floor

Floor gives cards back .. SB bets Flop and gets raised .. SB folds

58: Non-Standard Folds
Any time before the end of the final betting round, folding in turn if there’s no bet to you (ex: facing a check or first to act post-flop) or folding out of turn are binding folds subject to penalty. See also 15-B.

I have a long standing track record of approving the use of Rule #1 .. but WSOP ME, on stream with OPTAH interference .. not so sure I push the cards back. GL

I commented on this when you added it to another thread, but thought I'd give a little more detail here.

I'd be okay with it if the dealer had simply mucked the cards and shipped the pot to sb. And that's probably what should have happened, and why I say the dealer should be coached on procedures following their down.

But, since the dealer didn't muck them and they're 100% identifiable when the floor arrives, mucking them at that point would be a terrible decision. The floors hands are tied, imo, the cards have to be returned to the player. Warn or penalize player after the hand if it's deemed necessary.

Yeah I 100% agree with you. There is a huge difference between dealing a $1/$2 cash game and the WSOP Main event. Players in the ME should be expected to know the rules, or at the very least confirm anything they are unsure of. That hand needs to be killed.

Blinds 5k/10k. SB has 5k chip out and silently adds 25k chips.

I don't think it's entirely fair to point out that the dealer announced call while leaving out the detail that the dealer left both chips in front of the SB which added to the confusion. IMO, they should have pushed the 5k chip back to the SB.

No problem with how it was handled after that. If the dealer mucks the hand, fine, but once UTG speaks up there's nothing the dealer can do other than call the floor. The hand is clearly identifiable and the confusion is understandable. Fine use of rule #1.

Pointing out what happened on the flop is irrelevant to the ruling, btw. SB has nobody to blame but himself for losing the pot. Learn how to properly raise with a single chip, it's not rocket science.

1) Agree the Dealer should've pushed the 5k back. Someone mentioned how big the stream tables are .. not really an excuse as most of them are constantly standing up to pull bets in or push the pots.

2) The end result is a 6bb min or more (I think) swing to the BB's favor, which can affect future decisions/results for both stacks.

While I'm usually on board with liberal use of Rule #1 it's unfortunate that, in my mind, the Dealer 'issue' in this case tilts the scale for me to return the cards to the BB.

I will give some push back that mentioning the net result of the hand should be noted if not for only bringing to light that every Ruling does have an effect going forward. A 6bb swing can change the course of a tournament, even one this large, in so much that two of the FT Players in the ME were at 4-5bb at one point before turning their stacks around. GL

I have a question for experienced dealers regarding mucking folded hands.

I was taught early on in my career that a dealer can never go wrong quickly mucking hands that a player folds. What I mean by muck is burying them deep in the muck so they unretrievable.

It was explained to me that if you quickly mucked a folded hand, it would never be your fault. The player folded. If they folded to a misdeclared hand and their cards were unretrievable, that was their fault for folding. Not yours. If a player folds out of turn, kill the hand, it prevents any shenanigans later.

You will never be blamed for killing a hand that was folded, but resurrecting a folded hand that wasn't mucked can lead to all sorts of problems.

I still genuinely believe that and I would tell all new dealers to immediately muck any folded hand. Great rule of thumb for new dealers. Period.

All of that said, lately I have been finding more and more reasons not to immediately muck folded hands. As I have mentioned elsewhere, the casino I work at wants to be known as being newbie friendly. As a result, I have not try to immediately muck the bignblind when they mistakenly fold to an unraised pot. As mentioned elsewhere in a thread on misdeclared hands. I have resisted immediately mucking other hands in a pot where a hand has been declared but not yet shown.

Maybe it is because I consider myself a player more than a dealer, I have been finding more and more situations where I know players shouldn't yet be automatically folding their hands and I find myself delaying in mucking them. I like to think that I am doing it smartly and keeping game integrity intact, but I am also wondering if I am setting myself up to get in trouble at some point. I would love to hear some thoughts from other experienced dealers. Do you ever hesitate in mucking hands?

It's a good question.

Discussing nuances of the job without laypersons butting in with "well here's what *I* think about it with my zero experience in the box" was one of the primary intentions of this thread discussed with administration here upon its inception. It would be nice to get back to more of that feel around here.

Spending a moment thinking about this, I believe it's game dependent for me. In low fixed limit, I push them back immediately in this spot assuming the cards are still close to them. Zero complaints about it ever that I can recall.

In NL cash or any tournament they go instantly in the muck. I can't recall ever hearing a complaint about that either although it's possible there's been a grumble or two about it over the many years.

I've always advocated that the Dealers should be more involved with the game when dealing the lowest stakes in the room in an attempt to grow the game and educate the Players .. this applies to both 1/2 cash and low level tournaments. As the stakes increase the less 'active' a Dealer should be with the assumption that the understanding of the game goes hand in hand with the stakes (most of the time).

Due to the expanded circumstances of a tournament beyond one table, we should lean more towards the Rules but still keep an eye on circumstantial 'education'. GL

I will generally, but not always, muck a no-raise big blind fold. The exception is when they are money behind and haven't got the chips to put out there as a visual cue that they are the blind.

I hold mucked hands at showdown if a hand has been declared, but not shown.
If everyone throws them into a pile of their own accord, c'est la vie, but I will do my best to have the hand verified first.

So the place I deal at is terrible for how they treat on call employees. They won't schedule us, we have to pick up open shifts in a cattle call where part timers get the first priority. We're also forced out before anyone else, always.

We're doing the annual employee engagement survey, where they ask everyone to give honest feedback about the job, management, the company... They make a big deal out of it and work to get 100% engagement.

I came in early today and offered to start early if that would help. It didn't, but my supervisor made sure to tell me to do the survey while I was here.

So I head there and the guy looks in the poker folder for my unique code. Can't find me.

"How long have you worked here," he asks.

Only ten years.

Does it matter if I'm on call?

"Oh yeah, I found out yesterday that on call employees can't take the survey."

Wow. Well, this room constantly tells me I don't matter. Now my opinion literally doesn't matter!

Last year I have generally positive views of the company, management, and co-workers, but I did mention their treatment of on call dealers was not ideal.

Maybe that's the last thing they cared from me.

The next time they have one of those mandatory town hall meetings that I drive two-plus hours round-trip to get an hour at $12 an hour, I'll remind them that if I don't matter for anything else, I shouldn't matter for that.

blast them anonymously on social media, TripAdvisor, google, yelp, etc. They hate that.

Dealing a 2-5 table the other day. 6 players have their phones out and only look away from their screen when the action is on them. The other players aren't speaking at all and are either watching the tv on the wall or are silently following the poker game on the table.

After about 10 minutes of this I quip, "The next time I'm at a party and someone says to me 'You're a poker dealer? You must have some crazy stories.' I'm gonna tell them about you guys!"

Crickets.

Internal survey. They really just don't care about us on call dealers.

The more I read here about what casino dealers go through with management and players, the more thankful I am to have gotten my first (and hopefully last) dealing job at a small local room. You guys shouldn't have to put up with crap like this.

We unionized about 20 years ago, and still get complaints about unfair scheduling (mostly unfounded, sometimes you have to cover on your typical days off, but mostly not different shifts). Seniority is king. I would flip if they scheduled a useless all hands meeting for dealers. We mix pit & poker and all share tokes. One of the best quotes a manager gave me is you don't have 10 years of experience you have 1 year 10 times. Really changed my perspective. I can't count the number of long time employees that transferred out of the union and didn't last for many months or years even doing the same job just as well as they had been. I'm not upset about some but am about others

DM me if you want organization information.