$1/$3 slow played AA against strong line

Look, I'm sure we have all been there in the past, we think we have found a great "exploitive" was to play AA and KK, and to be fair, some of the solvers are flatting AA/KK to a 3 bet at some frequency. The problem with the solvers is that they are looking for equilibrium, and when perfect equilibrium in play is reached, the only winner is the guy raking the pot. So (hopefully) everyone understands that the main benefit to knowing GTO play is to understand when and why to deviate from it, or to use it defensively when we don't understand what is going on in a pot.

The main point is that after the many hours and years I have spent playing poker both online and live, and after the many different things I have tried over the years, I (along with many posters in this thread) have come to the conclusion that the best, most "exploitive" way to play AA/KK is to 4 bet, 5 bet, and/or 6 bet them relentlessly. These 2 hands make up such a large percentage of your winnings in poker (and yes, some of these winnings come when people fold) that changing the way we play these hands generally does more harm than good.

When you want to improve your game or "raise your ceiling", you want to look at hands that are slightly above breakeven or slightly below, and mess around with the way you play those hands. Trust me, after 30 years in poker you will find you have "made the most" out of AA/KK by 4 betting with them every time.

EDIT: Oh, and if you are gonna mess around with them, ffs don't pay a board like this off. I'd rather 6 bet 22 than call the river here.

+1

Yeah, I mean I likely get more tricky with big pairs more than anyone here. I've recently twice flatted small raises in EP hoping something would happen behind me. I obviously lol limp/overlimp them from everywhere but LP+. And due to dealing with my super nit image I get sometimes having to deviate.

But this spot? Unknown player who is likely bad and pulling the LRR? This is not really the spot to deviate.

GcluelessdreamspotnoobG

I said you could potentially 4B all of those hands. Implicit is the understanding that we're deep enough for V to have a 3B-call and 3B-fold range.

By stupid, I meant that the concept of a button straddle is stupid, not that straddling from the button is stupid. The concept is inherently stupid because, as you've agreed, it's bad for the game.

See my first reply - I 4B jam, at this stack depth.

You want to flat call a 3B and let your opponent see a cheap flop, in the hopes you can avoid disaster and get his whole stack? Okay, that's a viable choice, assuming you can out-play your opponent post-flop.

It's not clear that's the case here. I think you mis-played it pre, and compounded your pre-flop mistake by mis-playing flop and turn.

Playing it the way you did pre, you gave up the opportunity to get stacks in pre, or simply win $135 without seeing a flop, in favor of putting your whole stack at risk.

It's 1/3, not 5/10. Most of the player pool at this level is happy to stack off with 80% of their 3B'ing range pre, but their stack off range becomes more nutted on each subsequent street.

Your V basically limp-raised from the BB, over your BTN open. It doesn't matter where the game is played, it's extremely unlikely that V is only going to put you on AA/KK when you 4B over his 3B.

But, take all that for whatever you think it's worth. If you think slow-playing your big PP's pre in spots like this is going to lead to a higher win rate, okay, then do that.

Out of interest, when you pull your "gotcha" limp reraise trick (I presume your range for this is QQ+ and AK?), if you get 4bet, what would you do with KK against a decent player?

I've folded KK preflop four times in ~6K+ hours, so a situation that arises every ~1.5K hours / ~4 years for this rec player. So nothing much to fret about, especially if I'm still sitting on my 66bb starting stack (where a LRR commits me). If I'm deep against someone very aware of my super nitty image and they're still 4betting my LRR deep, yeah, I'd probably consider folding KK preflop for the fifth time.

My LRR range is dependent on the raiser / the callers / how much dead money / stacks / table dynamics / etc. In some spots, it will only be AA, and in others it can be much wider like 88+/ATs+/AJo+/KQo. By default it usually sits around JJ+/AQ+. There will even be times I limp monsters to LRR and then just flat (mostly in HU pots with no dead money against an aware player). It all depends.

GcluelessLRRnoobG

Can we discuss button straddling some more? Is it really a +EV move? I don't play in games with this rule so I'm very curious. I could see it being good against some fish who respond poorly but overall it seems like putting money in blind is still -EV right? Again this is the first time I've thought about it but OP seems confident enough in the opinion that this is +EV that I'm curious

Personally, I'm in the camp that putting in money blind from anywhere is -EV, so even though my game allows an UTG and Button straddle, I haven't once done either myself. If we want to put more money in on the Button I see no reason why waiting for a hand we want to do that with wouldn't be more EV than doing it for 2xbb blind with ATC.

Gbutthat'smeG

BTN straddling is generally presumed to be +EV in theory. People who do it relentlessly obviously view it that way.

Straddling from UTG is generally seen as -EV for the UTG player, but generally good for the game, because it stimulates action. That's often true, but I've seen that it can also kill the action sometimes, in a game where no one will stick their head out unless they have a very strong hand. But, generally, UTG straddling is good for the game, if everyone is doing it.

BTN straddles do the opposite, by forcing the blinds to act first. Unless they're terrible, they're going to under-defend their blinds. Additionally, players from UTG to the CO are going to be raising tighter ranges, because there's pressure to raise bigger. And yet, the players in the blinds will often just complete with some fairly strong hands, such that MP players will often just flat call rather than raise, allowing the BTN to see a cheap flop IP.

Exactly. OP is worried about widening his 4B range in a game where he says no one has a 4B range beyond AA/KK, and even 3B's are rare. I'd be 4B'ing a ton in that game.

V limp-3B, in a game where 3B's are rare. The limp-3B has to be ultra-rare. No idea why we wouldn't want to get stacks in pre with AA.

If we 4B-jam with AA, and the limp-3B'er folds, okay. Like I said in my first reply, now we know he's got a limp-raise-fold range, and that range apparently doesn't include AA/KK. Let's start 4B'ing JJ+, AK, AQs, and A5s.

There are quite a few comments related to them, as a BTN straddle is allowed in at least Vegas, MGM Springfield (NE coast), and Texas which covers a lot of people who post here (although all three have slightly different rules). I've also seen some pros talk about them. However I don't think anybody has really collected a lot of information into one place/thread, so it'll be annoying to find it all.

What it should do: As with all straddles everyone should become tighter, but they should be much more tight because the third blind is now in position.
This is esp. true of the normal blinds, esp SB. People play SB too wide anyway but with a BTN straddle it should be insanely tight.

Lots of low stakes players do not do this though, which becomes a significant error (and thus. very +EV for the BTN). Another significant problem I see is that people split their range much more with a BTN straddle, which helps everyone but esp. the BTN (because he's more likely to be playing hands).

Exploits: As with lots of things low stakes players don't think about balance, and so aren't. IMO the main things to look out for are:

1. What is the relative stack sizes now. Eg. guy with 50bb can now have 20bb and decide 88 or 66 is the nuts and he's shipping it pre.

2. How often is the BTN raising when "limped" to, and does he split sizes/ranges. Way more players than you might assume will raise like 76s with 3 limpers.

3. How often is the BTN calling when you raise ... yes they are getting a better price, but often they'll be super wide and "have a plan" to bluff when you check.

4. How does everyone else respond. Will generally be too wide and/or too face up too early. Also lots of people won't increase their raise size correctly. Eg. They'll usually only raise very good hands to 7.5bb and limp a bunch of others, but now they'll be raising to 4bb.

5. At least 10% of the time someone will not notice and raise to 3bb or less instead of 6bb because they didn't see, or fold out of turn or whatever.

At Rivers in Philly, players are allowed to straddle from any position, with earliest position having priority over latest position, which allows everyone and anyone to stymie the BTN straddle by simply straddling from any position before the BTN.

It's kind of a weird thing to straddle in MP, and force the action to start from your left, but I like doing it when the BTN is always trying to straddle, because it sort of screws him over, even if it's also -EV for me, and what I'm doing is only slightly less bad for the game compared to letting the BTN straddle. It's sort of a lesser of two evils thing.

Most low stakes players have no idea how to adjust to ANY straddle, much less a straddle from any position that isn't UTG. But the BTN straddle seems to mess the game up the most, because of how it warps everyone's ranges pre-flop.

Like, if you're at a loose table, you'll see people limp in with a strong range from the blinds, like they're an OMC sand-bagging AA from UTG, hoping to put in a limp-3B. Now what do you do with 99 in MP when you see that happening? Limp and go 5 ways to the flop? Raise-fold when you get 3B from the blinds? What do you do when you get 3B from the BTN?

This is why I would 4B jam in OP's spot. I can't think of a better situation than straddling the BTN, picking up AA, and having the BB limp-3B over my raise. That limp-3B from the blinds when the BTN straddle is on is so strong.

Is the pot otr 690 and not 951?

As played call. It's like a hp bet and he probably shows up with kings.

you're only allowed to make edits till about 20 minutes after it's posted

idk i dont mind checking flop if u do this pre. if u do stab id bet bigger. honestly doubt you win but wouldnt fold

Since most replies are focused on the preflop let me try a different question...

What SPR are you happy going broke with w a KK+ overpair post flop? Seems like it's less than 2 for most of you? For me if I get SPR down to 2 preflop then I'm going to be fine getting it in on pretty much any board for the rest of my stack. Some exceptions obviously, but they're rare. Whole reason I posted this one was because I thought for a while on the river - this seemed close to me. I did call because I'm too big of fish to fold when preflop SPR = 2.0 and I'm getting 3:1 on my call.

Is just stacking of w SPR = 2 too loose?

You're right, river pot is wrong...should be $691 as you noted. OP was a mess, blew the river pot and the river card! And thanks for the edit heads up.

And for the 4b crew, your stubbornness drove me to do some math...have to think about the results a bit more, not sure they're exactly what I expected. Results first, then I'll explain my assumptions...

If I flat preflop, I need to be able to be able to get an additional 55bb in post flop (that's on top of what went in preflop) in order for flatting to be higher EV than 4bing

Assumptions as follows:

I said his limp/3b range is JJ+, AKs, AKo...I think that's reasonable, maybe a little tight, maybe TT, AQs
I said he folds JJ, AKo to my 4b
With these stack sizes he doesn't have a 4b flat range, I think he shoves or folds. So I said the rest of his range gets it in.
I have 80% equity against his "get it in range"

In the flat scenario I said I have 83% equity and that I double him up in the 17% of the hands I lose.

Can I really get 55 bb out of his range to make flatting +EV vs. 4bing? Obviously most of you think the answer is "no" but I'm not sure. Any AK that connects (all two of them!) and I'm getting it all, getting it all from Ks pretty often, Qs less often. Probably need to do some more math. It's not obvious to me what the right answer is. Think it's closer than I though, I expected the break even number to be lower.

Ok so

1) youre 3 betting close to gto
2) V will fold everything but AA KK
3) you cant 4 bet light, because they will adjust.

Do you not see how these 3 things cant all be true? If you 3 bet that wide and they are paing attention, they will surmise you 4 bet wide as well, especially when there are simply far fewer 4 bet opportunities. I think there is some cognitive dissonance where you think V calls with their whole range if you 4 bet A5s, but folds it all when you have AA. I think its WAY WAY more likely that they overcall, because thats been my experience, and exactly why missing a 4 bet here is just a gigantic ass leak.

99% of the time stacking off with an overpair in an SPR 2 pot (especially HU) is a fistpump spot.

But this happens to be one of those cases which might be an exception. First, an opponent who limp reraises is heavily weighted to big pears and AK (unlike a single raised pot or a loose player who calls a 3bet whose range can be much much wider). Second, a QJT board is the nut low board against this tight range (as QQ/JJ/TT and AK all got there).

GitdependsG

Hoping to not seem argumentative as I reply without necessarily answering your specific question(s) directly...

When we're in this spot pre-flop, I'm not necessarily thinking about the SPR post-flop, and how I want to play various boards, because my goal is to get the money in pre, not out-play my opponent post.

We know AA is the best hand now. We know our opponent has a hand he likes now. I just want to get stacks in now, because there are only so many possible outcomes if we do, or if we don't:

1. We jam, our opponent folds, surrendering his equity, and we win the pot 100% of the time.

2. We jam, our opponent calls, and we win his whole stack something less than 100% of the time, because some percentage of the time, he'll suck out.

3. We flat call, and whatever the board is, we get stacks in, and win.

4. We flat call, and whatever the board is, we get stacks in, and lose.

5. We flat call, and whatever the board is, we don't get stacks in. Instead, our opponent ends up folding a hand that might have called a jam pre-flop, and benefited from being able to realize some equity just by getting to the flop.

6. We flat call, and whatever the board is, we don't get stacks in. Instead, we fold, because the board so heavily favors our opponent rather than us (like this board, where we lose to a ton of hands that make up the thickest part of his pre-flop limp-3B range).

I think those are the only possible outcomes. If we jam, we can win the entirety of the existing pot if our opponent folds, surrendering his equity. Or if he calls, we might get his whole stack, probably around 80% of the time, but we'll still lose around 20% of the time.

I'm 100% okay getting stacks in pre, knowing that there's a roughly 20% chance our opponent will suck out, and a non-zero percent chance that he will sometimes fold when we 4B-jam, even if that means we win less than we might have if he called.

But I'm not okay flatting, and letting our opponent realize some of his equity, increasing the likelihood that we not only fail to win his whole stack when he folds post-flop, we also might lose more when he DOESN'T fold.

Like, are we getting his stack if the flop comes out ace-high, and he's got Jacks? Not unless he also made a set. He's folding JJ on any flop with an A, K or Q on it, if we so much as breathe on it. But he's stacking us with KK, 99, and K9 on a flop of K-9-X, right?

Related to the post-flop SPR is the portion of our stacks being invested pre-flop. He 3B to $135, or 20% of our $650 effective stack. Before we let him see the flop, I want to charge him more. I want him to be pot-committed BEFORE he sees the flop.

Why? Because even if we min-click it to $245 pre, there'll be $490 in the pot, and $405 behind. That sounds better than letting him see the flop with $270 in the pot, and $515 behind. If 4B-jamming pre is simply out of the question, okay, fine - I'd rather min-click it, and play a 1 SPR pot on the flop, with AA, than play a 2 SPR pot with AA.

I don't know if he's going to 3B pre and call a $515 jam into $270 on ANY flop that doesn't improve him to the best hand. I'm pretty sure he's not calling a 4B pre, and then folding ANY flop if we jam $405 into $490, no matter what the flop is, whether he improves or not. MAYBE he folds AK in that scenario, but he'd have to be dumber than sack of door knobs to flat call a 4B pre with AK, leaving himself less than a PSB behind.

What's his range look like when he 3B's, we 4B, and he either 5B jams or calls if we 4B jam (or 4B-min-click it)? Do we care, if we have AA? Probably not.

What's his range look like when he 3B's, and we just flat call? Can we agree that it's probably wider in this scenario, and wider ranges are going to hit more flops than narrower ranges?

Do we care if he folds a worse hand pre? Nah, not really, especially not if we have a 4B range that includes more than just AA and KK. If you're telling us that everyone in this game is 100% folding anything that isn't AA to a 4B pre, alright, then we need to start 4B'ing wider, with hands that aren't doing quite as well if we just flat call his 3B.

You're hung up on only winning $135 if we jam pre and he folds. You should be more concerned about only winning $135 if we flat call pre, and then he folds post, or how much more we lose when he doesn't fold, because we let him realize his equity, and he stacks us with his 2P+.

Why would his limp-raise-fold range include AA/KK?

It wouldn't. You missed the point. The point wasn't the fold, it was the limp-raise. V limp-raised out of the blinds, so we know he'll do this with hands that aren't just AA/KK.

So you meant "[...] apparently doesn't include ONLY AA/KK."?