LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

Told ya - here's Kukoc at 192 in bball ref but 230 in reality - I knew that I didn't weigh more than that guy:

So Kukoc gained 38 pounds in a year or wherever they got the 192 from?... Again, only players in previous eras see this kind of manipulation and/or inaccuracy.

An old version of Stockton/Malone and no cast played the goat modern dynasty to a standstill in 98', while also sweeping Shaq and Duncan in previous series, so consider that the bench on the 92' Dream Team was essentially prime Stockton/Malone plus the best cast ever such as Ewing, Mullin, Drexler and more, aka unbeatable team - and this was just the bench, plus there was MJ/Magic/Robinson and company in the starting lineup as well.. Ultimately, today's team has too many non-best-in-the-world guys like Booker, Bam, Tatum, White, Haliberton, Holiday, Embiid or Edwards, while the original Dream Team only had a few non-bitw guys like Mullin, Laettner, Ewing, Stockton, and Pippen.

Talks about how great they were in 1998. Obviously translate to them being in their prime in 1992.

Why do you can so much about weight? You seem to be investing a lot of time into something that makes no difference and no one cares about.

He cares about it fiddy, and that's what matters. This is twog's thread after all, we're just posting in it.

He's discovered the great conspiracy of bbref. Their brilliant scheme was to make 90's players look small by listing their sizes in a diminishing way. And thus we modern people would be tricked into thinking ball dominator Leflop is the GOAT when we should be understanding that expert jumpshooting organic Jordan who built Pippen into just enough of a bricklayer to write the blueprint to win 6 championships with.

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Moses Malone (RIP) is 215 on bballref but 255 in reality:

Weight matters because Cowherd and others in LeMedia say that Embiid or Lebron would dominate in prior eras because they're like 280 and guys like Moses, Mahorn, Laimbeer or James Edwards were only like 215-225... Except it turns out they were more like 250-260 themselves.. Weights are significantly deflated for prior eras, which adds to misperception of malnourished plumbers and taxi drivers.

This is fair.. They were actually in their prime in 98' because of the long-running experience and also Malone really mastering his skills to get 3 straight MVP's from 97-99' (except the 2nd to MJ in 98') and also 3 straight 1st team defenses... This peak compares to Lebron, minus the titles due to facing MJ in the Finals (an unwinnable scenario)..

The 90's West was a conference of goat parity filled with long-standing organic juggernauts like the Jazz, Rockets, Sonics, Suns, Spurs and more - these teams took turns having their banner year and edging out each other to make the Finals.. So the teams MJ faced from the West were veteran-laden, battle-worn freight trains that possessed great chemistry and were having their banner year, aka the kinds of "organic" teams that destroy Lebron in the Finals - MJ went 6/6 against them once he got a single all-star teammate.

Btw, regardless of whether it's Karl Malone getting 3 straight MVP's and 1st team defense with a power forward skillset, or doing it with a point guard skillset (Lebron), it's still just Karl Malone and vastly inferior to MJ.. This is true even if Lebron is a superior athletically to Malone - their body-types and movements are similar and suboptimal for basketball compared to MJ.. An example of their suboptimal nature compared to MJ would be them being too slow to defend guys like Klay off screens, or run of screens themselves, so they can't play off-guard and facilitate ball movement like MJ can.

Hey fallguy can you explain how playing with Lebron makes Steph worse as evidenced by this Olympics.

its not just Curry - every single player who has struggled relative to expectations (Tatum, Embiid, Curry) on this US team just so happens to be sharing a rotation with Lebron. And every single time a player has gotten hot in this Olympics - KD in game 1, Bam in game 2, Ant in game 3 - they just so happen to be coming off the bench ie not playing alongside Lebron.

Lebron fans always moan about how his teammates always seem to underperform, they claim that he's so unlucky and if he had MJ's teammates he would have more rings, what they never seem realize is that there is a direct correlation between his teammates perennially underperforming - across 4 different teams over 21 years in the league - and Lebron's playing style.

+1

Or the USA bench is insanely talented to compared to the oponent.

When Lebron only had Wade and Bosh, his game still reduced one or both of them, so this Dream Team must fit into that same box anytime Lebron is among the leading scorers and/or assist guys - high-scoring ball-dominators like Lebron allow room for one other star like Wade or Kyrie, and then everyone else must say hello to "role player land" for the first time in their life..

And these role players will often underperform and shoot poorly against defenses that have solved the inferior brand of ball (and actually bait Lebron to dominate the ball) - Lebron's team offenses were never #1 and didn't compare to all-time offenses especially when compared to league average.

Hopefully Lebron will take a back seat from a scoring and playmaking standpoint as the tourney progresses, since his "bron-ball" skillset at high scoring levels prevents ball movement and imposes spot-up roles, thereby robbing teammates of capacity to produce at elite levels.

On this team, Lebron should just be a "banger" and try to dominate under the rim against some of these guys that honestly look very inexperienced compared to our guys.. Unfortunately, he's never been a great offensive rebounder or an opportunity seeker with a "nose" for the ball... The ball "finds" him only to dominate it with live dribbles and the aforementioned "bron-ball", the goat limiter of team ceiling.

It's easy to forget that 21 years has shown bron-ball (high-scoring ball-domination) to mostly lose with every cast.. Since he mostly loses with every cast and cannot have stretches of mostly winning like Curry, Duncan or MJ did, he produces less long-run title equity than they do.. By virtue of mostly losing with every cast, high-scoring ball-domination is a weaker skillset than skillsets that can mostly win, such as expert jumpshooting (Curry, MJ) or fundamental bigs (Duncan, Kareem, Jokic, etc).

Btw, Jordan fit into a winning and dominant brand of ball on the 92' Dream Team, while also being it's best player by virtue of being the only scorer-playmaker on the team and also averaging 4.0 steals and being the "closer".. Given that MJ cannot be exploited by being drawn into mismatches the way bigs can on the perimeter, he was the best defender on the team (and of all-time).

But this doesn't fit twog's narrative so it doesn't matter.

English me good.

Lebron was just fine in the Puerto Rico game. He did have a rough game against South Sudan. He's also almost 40. Jordan and Kobe wouldn't even be playable in this Olympics at this age. Neither one was making fast break put back dunks with ease, that's for sure.

Yeah LeBron is playing like he's 32-33, not like he's almost 40.

Djokovic golden goat

The starters are insanely talented compared to the opposition, and none of this explains why most guys drastically underperform alongside Lebron, such as Curry, Love, Bosh, Hughes, Ingram, Kuzma, Westbrook, IT, Clarkson, Caruso, Wood, Jamison, Dinwiddie, Drummond and many more.

Weak or underperforming teammates wouldn't be a problem if Lebron could carry weak help over top teams (win a series vs top 5 SRS opponent with weak scoring & efficiency from sidekick), or defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load on championship level)... Unfortunately, Lebron is too ball-dominant at carry-job volume to beat top teams, thereby needing all-time scoring help (star help)..

It's a GM's nightmare to find the superstar scoring help that Lebron's brand needs, while also finding all-time spacing help for his stiff-arm game.. Otoh, expert jumpshooters like Curry or MJ can carry the scoring load against top teams and also shoot over packed paints, so they don't need the scoring or spacing help.. Accordingly, they can win with "normal" organic rosters of 1 franchise player.

Lebron + AD equals a lottery team in prior eras, aka play-in team.

It isn't surprising that their only year without catastrophic and historically -embarrassing loss (like butchering four straight 4th quarters) was the once-in-a-century pandemic bubble, where the historic heist to get AD made the Lakers the only motivated team.. They've been a joke and propped up by media ever since.

But everyone saw Lebron be the 2nd option during the 2020 regular season and playoffs.. So everyone knows that for Lebron to win as 1st option, he needed 2 perennial all-stars and sidekicks that could outplay league MVP's (Wade, Kyrie) or make the Finals without him (Wade, Kyrie) - these 3 things are objectively more help than MJ had (2 all-star teammates, sidekicks that made Finals, sidekicks that outplayed MVP's).

Hating on the 2020 championship is the ultimate Lebron hater crybaby pathetic slant.

If Kobe or Jordan had won a ring like that you'd spin it a completely different way and you know it.

Sidekicks that made the Finals without him:

Lebron: 2
Jordan: 0


Sidekicks that outplayed league MVP's

Lebron: 3
Jordan: 0


Teams with 2 all-star teammates:

Lebron: 5
Jordan: 0


Teammates that were viewed as franchise players, i.e. asked to build a lottery team from scratch:

Lebron: 5
Jordan: 0


Sidekicks that matched or led Lebron in scoring for entire playoff runs:

Lebron: 3
Jordan: 0


Top 5 team defenses:

Lebron: 6
Jordan: 4


Top 5 team defenses without Lebron/MJ making all-defense, aka great defensive help:

Lebron: 3
Jordan: 0


Titles as 2nd option, aka 2nd-leading scorer on team for RS & PO

Lebron: 1
Jordan: 0

Conclusion: Lebron needed a lot more help than Jordan on both sides of the ball just to barely have a fraction of his ring count and ring frequency.

You can lump Kobe in there with Lebron, but not Jordan.... Compared to Jordan, Kobe was "carried" to several rings by having equal-scoring partners just like Lebron was "carried" in 2020 and 2016... This falls far short of the GOAT standard that Jordan set of leading teammates by 10-30 ppg in every series, while Kobe and Lebron let teammates lead them for entire playoff runs (just like everyone else in history)... So that's a big gap between MJ and everyone else in history.

If PPG is the only metric, then obviously Jordan is the GOAT. He might be anyways, but not because of 99% of the nonsense you post.