Akward Stack Size in the SB
1/3 NLHE 8 handed.
A couple of limpers then the CO raises to $25. Inexperienced and poor playing button flats. CO has a pretty strong range here, doesn't get out of line. I have AKs in the SB with about $200 behind. CO and button both have me covered. A standard 3-bet to $100-$125 doesn't feel right, neither does calling. If I jam I will probably only get called by hands that beat me or are flipping. What is the suggested play here?
Flat calling is fine, honestly. It's not the worst thing to flat from the blinds with a hand that flops well enough and is going to be disguised when we do hit. There's $56 in the pot, laying us better than 2:1 on a call. We can call for $25, and fold to further aggression on the flop when we miss, or check-jam with TPTK+.
Compare that to jamming $200 into $56, laying the CO 1.5 to 1, and flipping at best when he calls, or only winning $56 when he folds. Even if he calls with worse, he'll still
I think a check-jam from us is going to look very strong from us against a PF raiser if there is an A or K. We’re basically shouting that we can beat AK.
Always open to learning what I'm doing wrong.
When we jam $200 into $56 ($25 raise x 2 + 2 limpers for $3 each), we're risking $200 to win $56 when they fold. But if they call, they're calling off $175 to win $256 (the $56 that was in the pot, plus the $200 we jammed), which is 1.46 to one, which I rounded up when I said we'd be laying 1.5 to 1.
Is that not the correct way to express the wager, from the opponent's perspective? He's not risking another $175 to win $306, he's risking $175 to win $2
I’m confused. Shouldn’t we want the hands that would be flipping with us to fold?
What are we doing on the flop when villain has AQ, AJ, AT, KQ and we both whiff? We don’t know if villain has a big pair or just big unpaired cards.
I’d rather jam against these hands when we are going to be OOP.
Villain is going to feel more uncomfortable playing with us in future hands if he folds and doesn’t get to see what we have.
Thanks all.
I did jam and CO tanked for a while before calling with QQ. Button folded but unfortunately I didn't improve postfolp. I think CallMeVernon and others have it right. Against the range I gave, I pickup $50 here way more often than I am called, that's what makes it wort it.
Wow. I wonder if he even folds AK there, putting us on AA or KK.
Villain tanking with QQ might reveal more about how you play than you think. It's possible he's just tight, but since you're making a thread to question whether shoving AKs $200 with $50 in the pot from a single raise and a call is a fine play, it's also possible he thinks you're so tight that you're only shoving better. If he's folding AQ because he thinks your range is KK-AA and sometimes AK that's a problem.
I think a check-jam from us is going to look very strong from us against a PF raiser if there is an A or K. We’re basically shouting that we can beat AK.
Consider the SPR in that situation.
We flat call the $25. There's $81 in the pot going to the flop. The PFR c-bets $30-$40 on an ace or king high board. Maybe the BTN flats. Now we jam for $175.
The pot is $300-$335 coming back around to the CO. He's getting a decent price to call with worse AX/KX, in a spot where he's less likely to think we have AK.
Say we whiff, and still check jam, and he calls with QQ. Assuming he calls our pre flop jam with that hand, we're in no worse a position than we were pre-flop. We just stand to win more money if we spike an A or K.
Pre-flop we were risking $200 to win $56 with our jam. Post flop we're risking $175 to win more than >$81. And when we jam post, we can rep a wider range that can connect with the flop, creating more fold equity.
Consider the SPR in that situation.
We flat call the $25. There's $81 in the pot going to the flop. The PFR c-bets $30-$40 on an ace or king high board. Maybe the BTN flats. Now we jam for $175.
The pot is $300-$335 coming back around to the CO. He's getting a decent price to call with worse AX/KX, in a spot where he's less likely to think we have AK.
Say we whiff, and still check jam, and he calls with QQ. Assuming he calls our pre flop jam with that hand, we're in no worse a position than we were
We spike an A or K less than 1/3 of all flops. Now multiway, in your example. With card removal, and V has at least 1 A or K in the stated initial raising range >80% of the time, it's even worse. Around 1/4 of the time we get either an A or a K.
You are correct, for the 6 combos of V's QQ continuing range, that we are no better off on the 3/4 whiff-on-flop set, assuming V calls our shove anyway. That's 6 combos out of the over 80 additional combos that we let in to see a flop, (of the >100 total V raising range combos) by not jamming pre.
Again, I don't understand, (I'd be curious from the players here with good data, what their winrate is with AKs.) how seeing a flop with AKs at low SPR is making on average more than the over 40 dollars we would've made if we shoved pre. Especially now multiway.
Consider the SPR in that situation.
We flat call the $25. There's $81 in the pot going to the flop. The PFR c-bets $30-$40 on an ace or king high board. Maybe the BTN flats. Now we jam for $175.
The pot is $300-$335 coming back around to the CO. He's getting a decent price to call with worse AX/KX, in a spot where he's less likely to think we have AK.
Say we whiff, and still check jam, and he calls with QQ. Assuming he calls our pre flop jam with that hand, we're in no worse a position than we were
I don’t think a lot of villains will think about it that way. They often won’t even know how much is in the pot. Many 1-3 villains don’t bother to keep track.
They WILL know that we just jammed for $175 and to 1-3 players, $175 bet is a huge, scary bet. It’s rare in any 1-3 games I played to see anyone make it $175 on the flop. Some opponents will probably think making it $100 on the flop is a big bet even with the pot size. Ask them what SPR means and they might give a blank stare and look confused.
If we jam after the BTN flats, it looks even stronger to villain.
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Say we whiff, and still check jam, and he calls with QQ. Assuming he calls our pre flop jam with that hand, we're in no worse a position than we were pre-flop. We just stand to win more money if we spike an A or K.
Pre-flop we were risking $200 to win $56 with our jam. Post flop we're risking $175 to win more than >$81. And when we jam post, we can rep a wider range that can connect with the flop, creating more fold equity.
I’m confused. You think check-jamming on the flop is a good play when we miss? Our hand is much weaker after we whiffed.
