LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

It all has to fit his narrative. Nothing is funny. Everything makes perfect sense.

Curry was the closer, whose magic was irreplaceable, while Lebron's defensive rebounds, ball-dominance and Westbrook-level turnovers was easily replaceable.

Accordingly, use the information gleaned from these Olympics to your benefit...

i.e. since Lebron was a 6-7 turnover per game player against international comp, he is essentially DONE.... he's done.... He will have a weak 2025 season and it will be obvious to everyone that he's done.. Bet the house against All-NBA and thank me later...

Why not go with the data? 4.0 turnovers in 24.5 minutes per game is about 6 per 36, or even 7 for a heavy playoff load - why is this insufficient evidence to show that he's done?... How many times was he unable to get past international comp penetrating the lane?.. The only question that anyone asks about Lebron during the next season is "when".. When will he retire.. After this season... Maaaybe 1 more.... Surely we cannot keep giving him fake awards since it's apparently gotten this bad.

Which market / sportsbook can you bet on someone to *not* make ALL-NBA?

And the bulls barely squeaked by those Pacers.

Lol@ calling both those Pacers and GS "three point shooting teams" when GS takes almost 3 times as many 3s.

Of course today they shooot 3s 3 times more ….
That wasn’t the point .
Pacers was able to shoots 3s efficiently .

Btw Kerr and kukoc would shoot more 3s too with success and no one stopping mj .

Mj would murder steph on defense going 50 pts on his ass .
Rodman , pippen , mj , harper would make it painful for the warriors .
I mean u saw how Boston totally shut down KD in the knicks ?
That was not even close to be bulls defense ..

LeBron Ball competed on the championship level 10 times. Four times more than Jordan. And with four completely different teams.

Again, I'm with you on MJ > LeBron, but this logic doesn't make sense.

Should we compare the Kawhi-Duncan Spurs or Curry's Warriors to the Bad Boy Pistons? Because that'll be a doozy.

But the Eastern Conference was a complete JOKE! Don't you understand? Jordan without Pippen would make the FINALS every YEAR in that type of Weak Ass East!

But would you describe him as SuperMegaElite ?

I really enjoyed watching Jordan's second run with the bulls when it happened. Found the Last Dance kind of boring through the first couple of episodes and haven't.gotten around to finishing.

Kerr wouldn't even be in the rotation against the Warriors. He said so himself.

And why would Steph be guarding MJ? MJ is GOAT, but out of every GOAT like team Warriors are well assembled to defend him.

Boston shut down KD in the Knicks. I don't even know how to comment on that.

🙄
I obv. Mean the nets .

It’s that damn McMuffin that keep yelling Knick knicks Knick’s in every thread 😀 ! We forget there is more then 1 team in NY .

The 2020 Lakers won a competitive Finals against the Heat despite AD getting 25 on 55%, so it's logical that they would've lost if he wet the bed with 19 on 42% (Pippen's Finals average).

Since we know that no amount of great defense would stop AD from getting destroyed by the media if he averaged 19 on 42%, this fact confirms that Lebron's 2020 chip is nowhere near the ring quality of any of Jordan's... We can say for a fact that at least 1 of Lebron's chips is distinctly below all of Jordan's... Lebron was probably 2nd option on that that run by virtue of AD being leading scorer for the regular season and playoffs (led entire league in playoffs), while carrying the Lakers against the only elite comp they faced (Jokic).

How do Lebron fans reconcile that at least 1 of his chips is less than all of Jordan's, and also that MJ went 6/6 with a far lesser version of AD - Pippen never dominated, let alone dominate a top guy like Jokic.

And again, no amount of defense would stop AD from getting destroyed if he averaged 19 on 42%, so we know the "b-b-but defense" argument doesn't exonerate Pippen from forcing MJ to carry the scoring load (defeat max defensive attention).. Pippen's historic bricklaying efficiency and low peak capability (not on scouting report) are critical factors because they forced MJ to defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load)..

Lebron gets exonerated for losing the 07', 14', 15' and 18' Finals because he was facing 1-on-5 defensive attention, except that's how MJ won every series that he ever played - he always carried the scoring load (defeated max defensive attention).. Pippen was simply inflated by the winning spotlight into all-time status despite never playing above a prime Larry Nance or Iguodala level.

How do Lebron fans reconcile the inferior 2020 chip (described above), and how do they reconcile the fact that MJ and Russell won the most chips of their era, while Lebron didn't??... People say that "Russell won 11", but at least both MJ and Russell won the most of their era and have that goatness in common, while Lebron is outside of this criteria by winning less than Duncan and Kobe.

How do Lebron fans reconcile this stuff to still call him goat?

Every Tom, Dick, and Harry was winning the 00's East with 1-star teams, so why wouldn't MJ?... Kidd, Iverson, Dwight and Lebron already did...

Of course, history shows that Kyrie played 12 of 14 games in the 15' East playoffs, while Love was a rare all-star sidekick in the 18' East, so the only time Lebron took a 1-star team to the Finals was when everyone was doing it (Iverson, Dwight, Kidd).

The 00"s East was the only conference in history that was routinely won by 1-star teams, yet this is the conference that Lebron put the top 3 players on 1 team... He diluted the worst conference ever, so he could face Oladipo and DeRozan instead of Wade, Kyrie, and Bosh

People see through someone that drastically failed to win their conference a couple times when expected (09', 10'), so they put the top 3 players in the conference on 1 team to manufacture a 'streak' of Finals.

Jokic could never get away with teaming up with SGA and KAT to make a bunch of Finals.. Or maybe he could, but this is why only winning the Finals matters, in order to show that a team won the whole league instead of being the 4th or 5th-best team that was luckily in the right conference.

So KD, 5 years older than he was in 2017 and after an archillies injury.

You know that's like comparing 96 MJ to Wizards MJ in terms of time difference.

Also, why didn't you talk about the year before when KD torn Boston a new one averaging 33ppg on 55/50/90 splits?

Lebron is 22-33 in the Finals, which is the worst-ever and a lottery record on the championship level, so his brand of ball cannot compete on the championship level..

Remember that the Pistons won 12 games this year, so every team wins when they get enough tries, so Lebron's teams are the "Pistons" of the Finals. The easiest comp ever.. This isn't my opinion - it's historical record that Lebron has the worst championship record in modern history over a large sample.

It's turns out that ball-dominance is inferior to ball-movement and frontcourt ball-dominance is the worst kind of ball-dominance - the worst brand ever that has a lottery record on the championship level.

When Lebron had help, making the Finals was automatic, but that's inferior to WINNING the finals being automatic for Jordan.

Jordan was automatic against Finals comp, while Lebron is only automatic against 2nd Round winners (conference finals) and otherwise loses to Finals comp - Lebron has lottery records in the Finals with 3 different teams and he's 20-21 excluding 07/15/18, so he's a loser in the Finals regardless of cast.. Losing the Finals with so many teams and all-star casts proves that he cannot compete on the championship level.

Lebron failed to meet expectation because when he entered the league at 18 years old, no one expected him to give up after Year 7 and start teaming up with opponents thereafter...

History shows that Lebron had an organic juggernaut and league favorite after 7 years just like Jokic, MJ or Curry.. Unfortunately, he gave up on learning the chemistry required to win with "normal" teams of 1 franchise player by obtaining better teams of 3 franchise players (super-team).. By opting for talent-based winning (all-star team strategy), he never learned how to win (chemistry).. He never learned the chemistry to win with what he had like Jokic, Curry and MJ did.

By not learning how to win and opting for talent-based winning (all-star team strategy), Lebron failed expectation.
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Here's why "Russell won 11" doesn't save Lebron & excludes him from goat debate:

both MJ and Russell won the most of their era, while Lebron is outside of this goat debate.criteria by winning less than Duncan and Kobe.

Russell was goat for winning the most of his era, and then MJ and Kobe followed, while Lebron fell short of this goat criteria

Carry on

Why is Finals record such an end-all be-all for you? And if so, why isn't Russell the GOAT?

Getting to the Finals has no weight with you. This makes discourse with you virtually impossible.

only WINNING the Finals matters, in order to show that a team won the whole league instead of being the 4th or 5th-best team that was luckily in the right conference...

For example, the 2014 would never make the Finals if they were in the West... Ditto the 15' Cavs, 07' Cavs, 11' Heat, 17' Cavs, and 18' Cavs.... These teams wouldn't have made the Finals from the West - they were only the 3rd to 5th best team in the league, but happened to be in the right conference with a diluted path to the Finals.

Finals record is a reflection of the team ceiling that a player produces - if a player has a lottery record on the championship level over a large sample, then he simply doesn't produce great teams.. Otoh, if someone like Curry, MJ or Duncan has phenomenal records on the championship level, we know they produced dynasties and their skillsets yield great chemistry/teams.

History shows that certain skillsets yield better team ceilings/Finals records because they yield better chemistry and brand of ball.. For example, it's statistical fact that ball-dominators impose spot-up roles, which are often bad fits, while expert jumpshooters can dominate while the ball moves, so they yield higher chemistry, strategic capacity (coaching), and therefore superior team ceilings/Finals records.... Let that sink in.

The stats confirm the higher team ceiling of jumpshooters because Curry, MJ, Kobe, Bird, Dirk, and Kawhi have a 20-8 Finals record, compared to 9-11 for ball-dominators like Magic/Lebron/Luka.... Similar to jumpshooters, fundamental bigs like Jokic, Duncan, and Kareem also have good Finals records, so ball-domination are the odd-man out as the only skillset that yields losing Finals records/weaker teams.

Since the best expert jumpshooters yielded the best teams (and generally won with the least), they should be ranked ahead of the best centers in the top 10, followed by the best ball-dominators, who produce the worst teams and the only losing Finals records.. Accordingly, the top 12 includes the best jumpshooters 1) MJ 2) Curry 3) Kobe 4) Bird - followed by the best centers - 5) Russell 6) Wilt 7) Kareem 8) Duncan 9) Duncan - followed by the best ball-dominators 10) Magic 11) Lebron 12) Oscar.... That's how the top 12 should be ranked (in order of the skillset that won the most and needed the least help to win.. Since ball-dominators impose spot-up roles and weak chemistry, they need the most talent/help (and still "can't compete" on the championship level, aka lottery record on the championship level).

Because of era...

When Jordan won 6 chips, his fans said he was goat because they said "Russell's 11 chips don't count since it was back in the boonies"... Similarly, Lebron fans discount Jordan's higher ring count for the same reason, "it was a different era, so throw those rings in the trash", but the issue is that Lebron must at least win the most in his era to make that argument, and he didn't.. MJ won the most in his era, so he could say, "screw the prior era", but Lebron didn't do this, so he can't say "screw Jordan's 6 rings" the way Jordan fans could say "screw Russell's 11".

Does that make sense?.. A player must win the most rings of his era to say "screw the prior era".. So that means that Kobe or Duncan are the goats and can say "screw Jordan's rings from that crappy era", while Lebron cannot make this argument because he didn't conquer this era like others by winning the most chips in the era.

Ultimately, Russell was goat for winning the most of his era, and then MJ and Kobe followed, while Lebron fell short of this goat criteria.

Everyone in this thread knows that if 90s Jordan team played against 2010s Lebron team Lebron's team would run them off the court.

The crying to try to back-up nostalgia is just cute at this point.

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New perspective on the GOAT debate


When Jordan won 6 chips, his fans said he was goat by saying "Russell's 11 chips don't count due to weak era"...

Similarly, Lebron fans discount Jordan's higher ring count for the same reason, "it was a different era", but the issue is that Lebron must win the most in his era to make that argument, and he didn't.. MJ won the most in his era, so he could say, "screw the prior era", but Lebron didn't do this, so he can't say "screw Jordan's 6 rings" the way Jordan fans could say "screw Russell's 11".

A player must win the most rings of his era to say "screw the prior era".. So that means that Kobe or Duncan are the goats and can say "screw Jordan's rings from that crappy era", while Lebron cannot make this argument because he didn't conquer this era like others by winning the most chips in the era.

Ultimately, Russell was goat for winning the most of his era, and then MJ and Kobe followed, while Lebron fell short of this goat criteria.

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Top 5 stats that disqualify Lebron from GOAT debate and confirm a fake debate:

1) Lebron didn't win the most rings in his era, which matters because players must win the most of their own era to say "screw the prior era" (and their ring counts)

2) Lebron cannot compete on the championship level by virtue of a lottery record in the Finals (worst-ever) and the most Finals "beat-downs" ever (sweeps, record losses, goat chokes).

3) Mostly loses with every cast and incapable of producing great teams or "unbeatable" teams that mostly win for stretches (i.e. Duncan winning 3 in 5 yrs, or Curry winning 3 in 4)

4) Zero teammates grew from low producer to meaningful producer on his watch, so he had zero young player development in 21 years and never "elevated teammates" - he always received ready-made, high producers or all-stars

5) The GOAT must be arguably the "best scorer ever" and "most unstoppable scorer ever", but Lebron isn't in these conversations because the best scorer must have tremendous diversity of scoring dominance - for example, they cannot be a simpleton "down-hill" player that lacks expert jumpshooting skill and elite off-ball play because the weaker diversity prevents the best teammate development, chemistry and team ceilings/Finals records.