LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

Magic and Isiah felt the same way - they said that if you took Magic, Isiah and Jordan off of their respective teams, the casts of Isiah and Magic would "annihilate the Bulls":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w7&t=41s

YouTube

Magic Johnson calls Michael Jordan the "best ever" in 1993

But obviously, if you gave Jordan an extra "pippen" (2nd star) like what Lebron had with his "big 3's", then MJ would win 11 straight titles easily.. He could've won 8 straight with just 1 "pippen"

You had Bird spots ahead of Magic on your list. Why? 5 > 3, no?

This is insane and exposes the fundamental flaws to your approach to this conversation.

1.) I don't understand why a 6-9, 250+ primary ball handler should be taking more jumpshots. MJ > LeBron, but discounting LeBron's impact as a perennial top-4 DPOY vote-getter and All-NBA Defense 1st teamer at his peak is where your perspective is lacking.

2.) LeBron's career reg+playoff .587 TS% is far greater than Kobe's .541. I don't understand how you call Kobe a more unstoppable scorer when he was clearly stopped more often. Add the far superior playmaking and defense and all you really have to rest your hat on for Kobe is one more ring and the intangible Mamba Mentality.

3.) Replace Shaq with Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, or AD and Kobe doesn't have five rings. You can't dispute this. Does he have three or four? Maybe, but not five.

and the FORM

only MJ was a goat athlete and goat jumpshooter

And yet Dallas just made the Finals while Miami made it two out of the four years prior.

Those things obv should never have happened either. Yet Bron made it 8 straight times and 10 overall. GOAT young player + GOAT old player = GOAT. Everything else is variance. (Like lucking out to be the top team during an expansion era.)

Wasn’t the start of LeBron career matching with the last expansion team ?

Yep, bad luck for him.

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The GOAT won 6 of 6 Finals with bigger deficits at the 3 thru 7 roster spots than the Mavs had against the Celtics in this year's Finals:

1992 Finals

3. Kersey 14.8
4. Robinson 10.3
5. Ainge 10.0
6. Duckworth 9.3
7. Williams 7.8
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52.2 of 96.7 (53.9%)


3. Paxson 10.3
4. Grant 9.2
5. Cartwright 6.3
6. Armstrong 5.8
7. Williams 5.5
________________
37.1 of 104.0 (35.6%)


GAP: 18.3 percentage points



2024 FINALS

3. Holiday 14.4
4. White 13.8
5. Porzingas 12.3
6. Hauser 8.2
7. Horford 7.0
________________
55.7 of 101.6 (54.8%)


3. Washington 10.8
4. Gafford 8.0
5. Jones Jr. 6.6
6. Lively 5.6
7. Green 5.4
________________
36.4 points of 99.2 (36.7%)


GAP: 17.9 percentage points

what do you mean "yet"??..... "Yet" implies that Lebron wasn't expected to win the East after he put the top 3 players in the conference on 1 team - that's when his streak of 8 straight began - it started when he diluted the conference and consolidated power on 1 team..

He otherwise lost the conference twice when expected to win in 09' and 10', so he actually couldn't win the conference with homecourt, which is why he put the top 3 players in the conference on 1 team.. He amazingly got credit for winning the conference after that.

No one would respect Jokic if he teamed up with SGA and AD to have a "streak" of Finals runs.. Instead, Jokic is forced to learn the chemistry required to win with WHAT HE HAS..

Learning the chemistry to win with what you have is called "learning to win", which guys like Curry, MJ, or Dirk learned, but Lebron never did - he never learned how to win (chemistry) and only learned how to team-hop (talent-based winning, all-star team strategy).

19 years old

Luka............ 19.6 PER.... 3.9 BPM.... 0.101 WS/48.... 3.4 VORP... 21/8/6 on 55 TS
Lebron........ 18.3 PER.... 1.7 BPM.... 0.078 WS/48.... 2.9 VORP... 21/6/6 on 49 TS

At 19 years old, Lebron was a lottery player with the East all-star center on his team - he had lower PER than 40-year old Jordan and was nowhere near 19-year Luka (above).... Then he was a lottery player again at 20 years old in 2005.... But it gets worse..

At 21 years old, the all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas only made the 2nd Round despite adding a player that was better than 1990 Pippen on both sides of the ball and a HOF coach... MJ would've 3-peated with an all-star center and a better 2-way wing than 1990 Pippen, yet Lebron only made the 2nd Round.

People simply forget that comparing their playoff record at 21 is unfair since one guy had 3 years to develop a high seed, while the other guy was thrown into the playoffs right away with no time to develop his team.

At 22 and 23 years old, Lebron was a 22 on 35% player against championship competition (07' Spurs or 08' Celtics), while 23-year old Jordan was the best ever and "God in basketball shoes" (44 on 50%) against a goat team and #1 defense... tldr: Jordan was easily better from 21 onwards.

Everyone knows it's completely irrelevant to focus on super-young or super-old guys and their lower-caliber of basketball... The GOAT must achieve the highest caliber of basketball, which is 70 wins and the title, while being the MVP, FMVP, scoring champ and 1st-team defense.

This is goat individual achievement and goat team achievement, which only Jordan achieved simultaneously.. Jordan matched this level in 98' by achieving the same feats (MVP, FMVP, scoring champ, 1st team defense), while also three-peating for the 2nd time, which Kobe/Shaq failed to do, while Lebron and Durant failed to do even once..

Another goat standard is 3-peating while averaging 41 ppg, which is unheard of... He also averaged 36/7/8 while defeating max defensive attention (carrying scoring load) and being the primary defenders on Drexler and Magic - that's the best 2-way play ever (carrying scoring load while guarding Magic & Drexler).

MJ fans said that Russell's 11 rings didn't matter because it was a weak era, and now Lebron fans say the same thing about Jordan's 6 rings.

Accordingly, since every era is "weak" to the new generation, a player simply needs to win the most of his era to reach the goat standard...

MJ won the most of his era, which allows him to say that previous eras were trash, whereas Lebron can't say that because he didn't even conquer his own era by winning the most rings in his own era.. Duncan and Kobe won the most, while Curry's were the loftiest (best teams and records).

Jordan made the Bulls good, otherwise they had one of the worst on-paper rosters in the league, such as no elite-scoring capability/threat from the 2nd option, no 3rd scoring option, and no rim protection..

Otoh, every contender had elite "1b" scorers at 2nd option that could light it up and carry a team to the Finals, while also having 3rd, 4th and 5th scorers, and also great rim protection..

During the 1st three-peat, the best 3rd options were 3x all-stars like Aguirre, Nance, Majerle, or bosses like X-Man, while the 2nd three-peat saw All-NBA guys at third option (Schrempf, Mashburn, Mason).. The historical record also shows bigger gaps at the 3rd through 8th roster spots for the 92' Bulls vs Blazers than the Mavs vs Celtics this year (see stats in previous post above).

My logic of the Finals loser not making the Finals from the other conference is intuitive and relies on the standard expectation, while your logic relies on something unlikely to happen (an "upset"), which actually doesn't exist in the first place.. 7-game series always decide the best team, unless player availability changes between series.

The overwhelming likelihood for Dallas in the East is that they would face Boston at some point and obviously lose, and the idea that Boston would lose to any other team is false because they "beat the team that beat the team"... Similarly, Dallas beat the team that beat the Nuggets - the T'Wolves didn't get lucky against the Nuggets - Jamal Murray was beaten down and done for that playoff run as least, so the Nuggets were cooked against any good team..

Again, 7-game series decide the best team - for example, the unprecedented, 6-time preseason favorite from 2011-2016 (on-paper favorite) beat a paper-tiger 73-win team in 2016... Similarly, Dwight beat Lebron's paper tiger in 09', or Dikembe beat Payton's paper tiger in 94', or Baron & company beat Dirk's paper tiger in 07'... Again, 7-game series decide the best team - this doesn't exonerate individual choking however, since that's baked into the cake - the reason the 11' Heat were inferior was because they had a massive choke factor lurking ready to burst as part of it's natural evolution - so they were cruisin' for a bruisin'... tldr: there's no free will
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^^^ see that's what they don't understand - Devin Booker has really good 1-dribble pull-ups too, except MJ gets up about 12 inches higher on off the ground with so much athleticism that his perfect form is almost exaggerated, and then he has the "big man hands" to guide and control the ball - it's another level that these youngsters would have to see in person... A Devin Booker pull-up is like a Chrysler 300 and MJ's is the Maybach

Why bad luck ?
Maybe that explains LeBron advantage too how he dominate the east for so many years …
If couple team help mj to dominate the league surely one help dominate the east for lebron …

Sure, a lack of expansion (which would dilute the league) def helped him 🙄

what happened

Similar to your results oriented thinking when it comes to Michael. Just try to be consistent.

You're all over the place. It's sloppy.

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2010 Wade...... 28 PER... 9.2 BPM
2010 Kobe....... 21 PER... 4.4 BPM

2010 Bosh....... 6x all-star.... 1x All-NBA
2007 Pau......... 1x all-star.... 0x All-NBA

^^^ Lebron teamed up with Kobe-Pau Ii but went 2/4 including goat choke and record loss - that's the worst anyone could do, aka bron-ball is a horrible brand of ball that underachieves favored talent (loses with preseason favorite, or falls to underdog).

Actually, your argument made no sense - who cares that Dallas and Miami made the Finals in recent years??.. What does that have to do with the Finals loser not being able to make the Finals from the other conference?.. (by virtue of proving inferior to that conference's winner)... Since Finals appearances are conference-dependant in this manner, only winning the Finals matters to prove you beat the whole league instead of just a conference.

The response was over your head, but there's nothing sloppy about the following history: Lebron was unable to win the East when expected in 09' and 10', so he put the top 3 players in the conference on 1 team to manufacture a streak.

This isn't respectable or even top 10, let alone GOAT.. Yet you treat the 8 straight Finals like it's impressive... I'll never understand that.

So it's pretty straight forward.. Lebron had a one-off like Iverson, Dwight or Kidd and otherwise couldn't win the East until he teamed up with Kobe-Pau Ii ,(see stats above).. Yet he still went a pathetic 2/4 including goat choke and record loss - that's the worst anyone could do.. Carry on

Jordan had goat winning by virtue of 70 wins and title, Finals record, or 6 chips in 3-pointer basketball, so it isn't results-oriented to cite the greatest burden anyone ever carried as the reason for this goat winning:

Goat Burden:

* the only player to ever win with the highest possession burden in the league (usage champ - 5 rings)

* the only player to win with the highest scoring burden in the league (scoring champ - 6 rings).. edit: Kareem & Shaq did it once in their peak seasons of 71' and 00', so their peak burden was MJ's standard to win chips.

* the least all-star help ever - virtually everyone in history like Hakeem, Magic, Dirk, or Duncan played with many all-stars, while the goat had just 1 all-star**

* the only player to win as the best scorer and 1st team defense (6 times) - the goat 2-way player

* #1 all-time in PER, BPM, WS/48, PPG and also 5 of the top 7 VORP seasons (VORP is accumulative based on minutes, so using individual seasons is the best gauge - VORP is actually Jordan's strongest stat where he prevails handily in any comparison).

* the only player aside from Curry and Kobe to win multiple Finals while defeating max defensive attention (carrying scoring load on championship level - 6 times).

* Winning 6 chips the rare way, aka WITHOUT a franchise player at sidekick (a player that was asked to build a team from scratch like Kareem, Wade, AD, Pau, KD, etc.. Less guys won with non-franchise guys like Klay, Pippen or Murray, etc

* The Bulls didn't have 3rd, 4th or 5th scoring options like every other contender had, and they were the only cast that lacked a dominant sidekick to take over in the playoffs (lowest peak capability of any notable sidekick), and zero rim protection, aka the worst cast among any contender and one of the thinnest rosters in the league - the worst scoring help in the league.

^^^ that isn't results-oriented - Jordan's 6 chips are as legit as they come - literally GOAT quality rings.

** among notable sidekicks, pippen had the worst peak scoring capability, the worst passing, worst-ever efficiency/lane-clogging, and worst-ever clutch - anyone that won more than 2 Finals had a teammate get 25 ppg or FMVP for at least one of the Finals, except Pippen is 0/6 in FMVP and peaked at 21 ppg.

I praise Jordan's 6 chips because he had the greatest burden ever based on possession burden, scoring burden, all-star help, 2-way caliber, goat production rates, and more as described above..

So I'm not results-oriented regarding Jordan, but you guys are about Pippen - he never played above a Larry Nance or Iguodala level, but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and media accolade.
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ok apparently kareem was scoring champ and 1st team defense when he won in 71'.. the exception to the rule i guess

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"screw the weak eras of the past because I won the most of THIS era (the modern tougher era)."

^^^ this is a very effective argument.. It was used by MJ fans to discount Russell's higher ring count, and now it's being used by Lebron fans to discount MJ's higher ring count.. The problem is that Lebron didn't win the most of his era, which is required to make the argument.. Kobe & Duncan won the most, while Curry had the best dynasty and teams, so they qualify for this particular GOAT standard, while Lebron does not.

Curious to know what you think the "LeBron era" was. Pretty hard to judge him against Kobe winning 3 Championships before he was in the league. Duncan won one 4 years before he played a game.

It's a shame, because Magic has Jordan covered from 1980 to 1995, which covers most of MJ's era. Hard to knock Magic as he's up 4 to 2 in Championships where MJ and Magic played. Bird has him covered 3 to 2.

Eras and player careers obviously overlap, but could probably do something like consider the years a player is in their prime that overlap with other significant players. Or maybe the range of years they started/ended winning titles.

So like “LeBron era” could be something like 2004-05 to 2023-24 where he won 4 titles. That overlapped with guys like Kobe and Duncan who had 5 each. But wouldn’t take into consideration someone like Russell or Kareem bc none of their playing years overlapped.

Similarly Jordan’s era could be something like ‘85-‘86 to ‘97-‘98 and he had 6 titles. Which overlapped with Magic and Bird and Duncan and Shaq’s primes so we could group them together. Jordan comes out on top obv.

Not saying I agree with fallguy’s methods here but there are ways to approximate playing eras, which could be useful because things like rules, strategy, and general player base would be fairly consistent if the players careers overlapped.

So why doesn't Kareem and MJ's overlap?

So, if player A wins 6 chips, the LeBron comes in the league (but Player A plays for 2 more years that overlaps LeBron and is still in his prime). LeBron wins both those year. He then proceeds to win 3 more. LeBron doesn't win his era because a player won 6 Championships before he even plays a game.

Dumb.

It’s okay to have a dumb argument if you’re defending Jordan because his game and career transcended stupidity.

Lebron can add a 5th and 6th title to pass Kobe - that's legit and always has been - Kobe played a little bit in the Curry/3ball era just like Lebron.

To summarize, Lebron can't trash the ring counts of prior eras by saying he won the most in the toughest or modern era, because he didn't.. Kobe won the most, and Curry won the best.. Otoh, MJ won the most of his era, so he can trash the ring counts of weaker eras that came before him.

In addition to Lebron not winning the most of his era, he easily lost the most by having the most bad losses (sweeps, record losses), while underperforming favored talent 7 times (losing with preseason favorites or homecourt advantage), and also having bad losses in his prime to many different opponents like the Magic, Mavs, Nuggets, Spurs, Warriors - he was everyone's b****

He was everyone's b**** due to his simpleton "down-hill" skillset - it isn't the caliber of 5-man basketball like the zippy ball movement and bevy of high-assist teams that routinely destroy him and are his obvious achilles heel.. Basically any top team with chemistry ragdolls "bron-ball".. Unlike Curry winning 3 chips in 4 years or Duncan winning 3 in 5, bron-ball cannot produce "unbeatable" teams that mostly win for stretches - it mostly loses regardless of cast, while being unable to effectively compete on the championship level (lottery record on the championship level over a large sample).
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Jordan had the goat ring quality by virtue of winning 5 titles with the highest possession burden in the league, aka usage champ - this is unprecedented - MJ is the only player in history to do this and he did it 5 times.. It should be noted that Jordan's efficiency on these possessions (ortg) was higher than Lebron, the goat turnover machine (#1 all-time in turnovers and the biggest turnover guy in clutch-time history - butterfingers in the clutch.

In addition to having the goat possession burden (unprecedented), Jordan had the goat scoring burden to win chips (scoring champ) - only Kareem and Shaq in their peak seasons accomplished this.

In addition to the goat possession and scoring burden, Jordan had the only dynasty that wasn't a super-team - the Bulls were a normal "organic" roster of 1 franchise player, a secondary-producing sidekick, and low-producing role players.. Jordan also had the least all-star help of any multiple-time champion by virtue of having 1 teammate be all-star alongside him, while everyone else in history like Kareem, Lebron, or Shaq had bevies of all-star help.

Yeah I guess they overlap. I forgot Kareem played till ‘89.

I don’t understand your second paragraph about “winning his era”. You probably want to take that up with fallguy.

I will say, given your example, if player A and LeBron had similar stats across their prime, barring other information I would say player A is probably better. Depends on if they superteam hopped to get those 6 chips, as a possible example.

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Can a Lebron fan fill in the ???? part at the bottom for how this exchange would conclude?

Jordan Fan: MJ is GOAT because he won 6 chips as the best player.

Lebron Fan: But Russell won 11, so rings don't matter.

Jordan Fan: Previous eras were weak, so winning the most of your current era is all that is required for GOAT caliber

Lebron Fan: ?????????????????????