Line check w/ overpair vs tilted V

Line check w/ overpair vs tilted V

1/3 NLHE 6 handed

V - just switched seats to my immediate left. Never seen him before but others seem to know him. He's a bad player from the 1 hour or so I have with him. He's been playing way too many hands and also calling post a lot but in a more aggressive way that a typical loose passive. Let's say loose-aggressive but in the fishy button-clicking sense. 350$ eff stack.

H - is unknown to almost everyone and covers.

--

UTG folds, Hero sees Q Q UTG+1 and opens to 10, V calls CO, BTN folds, SB loose passive calls, BB folds. 3-ways in the middle SRP.

Flop 30 - J 7 7

SB checks, H bets 20, V calls quickly, SB folds. HU OOP.

Turn 70 - T

H bets 50, V pauses for a second like he's not sure then calls

River 170 - 9

H checks, V bets 175, H calls.

How would your line differ if V wasn't tilted?

10 August 2024 at 04:57 PM
Reply...

14 Replies



If villain isn't tilted river is a tough decision. The board is ugly but hero beats all of the two pair combos. Against a tilted villain the river is an obvious call, against a non-titled villain it's a judgement call.
I would also check turn some of the time against a non-tilted villain. With 2 sevens on the board and a good chance that any diamond draws have a ten hero shouldn't be trying to build a huge pot. Hero shouldn't be going away easily but some pot control would be good.


First impression was that turn and river cards are horrible, but V shouldn't have many 98 or KQ unless they're diamonds or spades. You beat JT and the slightly less likely J9/T9 (I think continuing on the turn is fine, although you could obviously check as well).

Clear call against a tilted opponent, but even against someone who's playing normally it's not necessarily the obvious fold it first appears.

What do people think the worst hand V should bet for value here?


If V was playing reasonably, with the river pot bet, the only bluffs that V can possibly have are a small portion of AX of diamonds, AQ and AK as overcards/missed straight draws (very small portion), and any other diamond suited hands (should be most of the range). Meanwhile, their value hands should be QQ (they shouldn't have any KK or AA) to get value from Jx-9x/JT/ T9/ JT, any 8x, KQdd or KQss, or full houses.

Don't wanna do any rigorous calculation right now but my hypothesis would be that your barely getting a good price to call with QQs as a bluffcatcher here. Especially if we consider that AQo and AKo are not obvious hands for people to continue and even bluff with in this board, then we are just condensing their bluffs to missed diamonds.

However, if V is tilted and they have shown tendencies to try to push people off rivers or call runouts with nonsensical hands, or even turn hands like Tx or 9x into a bluff (or thin value?), then this becomes a pretty good call.


Preflop standard and flop standard.

Prefer to check turn or bet smaller.

River: we block nut straight and fd missed. I think we have to call getting 2-1 but it's hardly a fist-pumping spot. We're going to get beat probably 50% but we get the right price. I'd rather call here with QQ than with AA.


PRE - open bigger when V to your immediate left is calling too wide. Make it $20.

FLOP - just check when OOP as the PFR, or as monkey in the middle. Betting 2/3 pot pretty much assures he's continuing with TP+ and draws to the nuts. If anyone bets, we can check-raise, or check-call, and play our hand as a bluff-catcher.

TURN - these middling size bets don't accomplish anything. Just check, and hope he bets, so we can check-raise, or bet huge, to set up a river jam.

RIVER - our hand is basically just a bluff catcher at this point, but he has a lot of bluffs. Just check-call.


Banana, ask yourself these questions, and see if the answers to each question align:

1. Why am I opening to $10 at 1/3?

2. Why am I c-betting 2/3 pot on the flop, when I'm OOP?

3. Why am I betting 70% pot on the turn on this card?

The answer to question 1 may be "I want calls", or "I want raises". But in a game like this, as in most 1/3 games, we'll still get called if we open bigger, and 3B's tend to be rare, only made with very strong hands. We should be opening larger than 3bb's in a heavily raked game, where opponents are calling way too wide, to build a pot.

The answer to question 2 may be "because I want to get value for my hand" or "to deny equity". But really, we should mostly be checking when OOP or as monkey in the middle, even when we have value, to protect our checking range, and to let our opponents make mistakes.

V will bet all his value hands, and most of his best draws, so we can check-raise. If he checks, we can then make a delayed c-bet on the turn. When we bet, he's going to be floating us wide, so we're not really denying any equity.

Opponents are going to make the most mistakes when we check to them as the PFR. They'll make slightly fewer mistakes if we c-bet small. They'll make even fewer, if any mistakes when we c-bet large.

When we c-bet large, we're folding out V's weakest hands that we want to keep in, and forcing him to only continue with his strongest hands and best draws.

When we open small pre, and then c-bet large on the flop, it seems like those don't align. We're letting opponents continue wider pre, but then forcing them to continue with a narrower range on the flop.

The answer to question 3 might be "to make his draws pay", but when we bet $50, we still have $270 back, so there's plenty of incentive for V to call with his draws.

The problem on the turn is the pot size and our remaining stack size. Starting on the flop, we either want to keep the pot small so we can get away from our hand and lose the minimum on a bad run-out, or we want to bloat the pot to set up a river jam - either for value when we think our opponent has a strong enough hand to call, or as a bluff when we think he doesn't.

By c-betting 2/3 pot on flop and 70% pot on turn, we're making it easy for our opponents to play perfectly against us. It's even easier for him when we're OOP.


I limp in preflop but that's me. Even more of a no-brainer with this tilting aggrotard in LP (good chance we get action on a limp/reraise, no?).

SPR is 11 so I simply don't want to stack off postflop (or be put in a position to do so) with just one pear. So I'd often check the flop here, and probably bet smaller if betting.

Ditto thinking for turn. We're just put in such a gross spot if he raises, so I again lean to checking and make sure I get to showdown for a reasonable price. I more bet/fold against non button clickers where we can safely fold to a raise.

Also checking the river. Against an aggrotard and with busted flush draws, I can get behind our bluffcatch here.

GcluelessNLnoobG


by Stupidbanana k

1/3 NLHE 6 handed

V - just switched seats to my immediate left. Never seen him before but others seem to know him. He's a bad player from the 1 hour or so I have with him. He's been playing way too many hands and also calling post a lot but in a more aggressive way that a typical loose passive. Let's say loose-aggressive but in the fishy button-clicking sense. 350$ eff stack.

How would your line differ if V wasn't tilted?

Villain is playing too many hands period. Tilted means you're playing too many hands. Ignore the tilted part. You're giving it way too much credence.


by gobbledygeek k

I limp in preflop but that's me. Even more of a no-brainer with this tilting aggrotard in LP (good chance we get action on a limp/reraise, no?).

SPR is 11 so I simply don't want to stack off postflop (or be put in a position to do so) with just one pear. So I'd often check the flop here, and probably bet smaller if betting.

Ditto thinking for turn. We're just put in such a gross spot if he raises, so I again lean to checking and make sure I get to showdown for a reasonable price. I more bet/f

Welcome to poker in 2004.


by Betraisefold22 k

Welcome to poker in 2004.

Honestly want to ban low content posts from new people replying to one of the best in the forum.
If you have an (incorrect) opinion, then state it. You can even take shots at posters who win way more than I do.

FWIW I doubt many were that good in 2004, most were way more likely to take lines that look a lot like OP and the complain it was a cooler when their QQ is never good.

Personally I'd probably range check flop, certainly check this hand.

Also although it's difficult to get a solver to tell you what to do vs. calling stations here (robot UTG+1 doesn't exist in 6max and robot CO only has like 5% call range and 3bets almost 7%) ... but still robot LO vs. CO HU robot LO checks this combo. on this flop 43%, bets 33%pot ~43% of the time too and then 50%pot the last 14% of the time.
Human CO is almost certainly a lot wider, and will have a _lot_ more 7x hands. Then there's SB who should make betting ranges smaller (GTOw lets you have a 5% calling range SB but I thought that'd be worse than keeping it HU).

Yes, CO has a bunch of trash too but those will be bad calls for $10 on the flop and he's more likely to call $10 with 22 then $20.

As to OP if you are targeting V in particular, the line might be fine (esp. if you have an image of being agro) ... but in a vacuum the sizings are way too big and betting flop+turn seems super agro.
Kind of weird spot on the river as the only non pair hands you can really have are AQ (maybe AK) with diamonds. So he's trying to get you to fold AdTd+? People don't often turn pairs into bluffs and lots of stuff has a pair by the river. So our best explanation is he has no idea what he's doing and decided his 9d6d isn't winning so why not pot it.
TBF lots of people can't help themselves from bluffing missed diamonds on the river, and he's probably bad enough to value bet JT/J9 here, so with the read I probably call river ... but I almost never bet twice this big to get there and wouldn't be shocked if it's close to 0EV given he has a decent amount of 7x that might play this weird way or 8x (which I'm not sure even that should bet this big on it's own, but lol telling most low stakes players that).


by illiterat k

Honestly want to ban low content posts from new people replying to one of the best in the forum.
If you have an (incorrect) opinion, then state it. You can even take shots at posters who win way more than I do.

FWIW I doubt many were that good in 2004, most were way more likely to take lines that look a lot like OP and the complain it was a cooler when their QQ is never good.

Personally I'd probably range check flop, certainly check this hand.

Also although it's difficult to get a solver to tell yo

Please. He advocates limping QQ and checking 3 streets to get and I quote ''showdown for a reasonable price''.

If this guy is ''one of the best'' this forum is beyond screwed.

With that being said. You're clearly no better.

betting flop+turn seems super agro.

???????


$10 open is a crime vs. described villain. Just go $15 - the preflop action will play out the same. The world will continue turning.


against described villian id rather check flop and let him think his 33 is good.


I go bigger pre, but otherwise I like it. I like the check/call on the river vs. this guy. No other way to get paid (I hope that's what happened).

Yes, I would play it different depending...

Reply...