1/3 NL - preflop spot shortstacked with KQo
Not sure if I'm being results oriented with this one or not, but this hand from last session irked me.
Weirdly awesome Saturday afternoon table where oddly I hardly know anyone and it is quite clear everyone else is horrendous.
V1 has whittled his stack down to lol $30. He had previously open shoved a micro-stack into the world preflop with A7o. He's in double-up-or-go-home mode.
V2 is and older super passive calling station but on the tighter side preflop. HH1 he flats an open to $15 and a call with QQ and a $175 stack. HH2 he overlimps KK in the CO, sees Button raise to $15, I limp/reraise my AA to $50, he flats again, 3ways to AJ3ss I $50 into $150, he calls, Jr turn, I shove $125 into $250, he calls, I declare "fullhouse" and he says "that's what I'm going for too". Ok.
V3 is a young clueless scared money guy who is probably playing live for the first time. Just typical face-up ABC loose-ish passive.
Hero is unknown to all of these guys and probably doesn't have an image (even though I'm obviously playing very few hands).
Preflop (9 players):
V1 open shoves his $30 UTG. Typical open at this table is $15 - $20 so this is seen as a large raise.
Folds to V2 in CO who flats ($210).
V3 flats in the SB ($210).
Hero in the BB with KQo and covers.
Against well known loose action players and my known image I would jam here. But kinda not in love with that with V2 (and maybe even V3) calling $30 preflop.
Never in love with putting 1/7th of my stack in preflop just flatting. But closing the action and keeping in dominated hands which I'll obviously stack hitting TP in an SPR lol 1.5 pot getting about 10:1 IO (although with some RIO too) as well as knowing I'll often get to the turn and river (as no one is betting until they hit TP+)?
Course the nit in me just wants to fold. Is that perfectly fine?
GcluelessNLnoobG
Yeah, flatting would be out of the question for me so I would either fold or jam since they both have 70 bb's ea., so it's more like a variance decision. If you think V2's sticky enough to call your jam, that would be more of a reason to fold since we would probably be flipping with most of his range.
Folding is fine preflop.
If I'm playing, I prefer to call and see flop getting 3-1 and likely having more than 25% equity. Jamming seems excessive as we create a ~300 pot and ~180 to call, so ~10-6 to call for remaining villains. We would just induce calls from the very top of either V's range and we cannot fold out the first V who has jammed and is probably flipping with us.
From V2's description, he's capable of having a hand here and he has been station-y already. V3 can have ATC I guess.
Given H's skill advantage, I prefer to wait for a better spot. If H plays, why not see the flop cheaply and play poker, given skill and experience advantage? Why create a high-variance spot?
Just fold.
Seems to me like calling is defensible, if we think we have a skill edge post-flop, though perhaps more so when playing from IP, rather than OOP. Since we're OOP, I think re-jamming to ISO is viable.
Folding seems fairly nitty, but obviously the lowest variance option.
I'm guessing the skill advantage is that I could get postflop action here from worse when making TP (as obviously I'll be committed in an SPR 1.5 pot with TP)?
GcluelessNLnoobG
I'm not sure why you think any skill advantage you have is going to come into play when you're going to be OOP multiway in a bloated pot?
There is little skill involved in a in a 4 way pot with an SPR 1.5 on the flop. You're not calling any bet if you don't have TP. If you bet out with TP, you can't fold to a raise.
Given this table is flatting QQ and KK to a raise, I just fold.
Fold, AINEC.
I would need KQs at the very least.
I would fold very happily here. Calling OOP with a mediocre hand against three opponents, one of whom is all-in, is going to be a very weak move with stacks this short. You could jam, but trying to work out if that's profitable would be a non-trivial maths calculation plugging in range assumptions that you'd be pretty much guessing at, and likely to give a pretty unclear EV answer at the end with variance to boot. tryinh to work out who has what Ax, who has what Kx and how they fit in to various lines just isn't something I want to try and compute (and by compute I mean guess) in a few seconds.
There is little skill involved in a in a 4 way pot with an SPR 1.5 on the flop. You're not calling any bet if you don't have TP. If you bet out with TP, you can't fold to a raise.
Given this table is flatting QQ and KK to a raise, I just fold.
They're Also more frequently flatting AK, AQ
Pretty sure the right play is a fold but depending on reads and your confidence in being able to navigate these opponents postflop you could justify taking a flop
Yeah, I'm among those who think you're often too nitty, but given short effective stacks and the reads (esp on V2), this is a pretty easy fold for me. It would be a mildly annoyed fold, but I'd still make it.
I’m the only one who sees 64 dead dollars and wants to jam? We’re flipping with the short stack’s range and the other two guys are capped. Seems like a jam and print. We push them off 99 and AQ which is really nice.
But V2 is not capped. We've already seen him flat QQ and overlimp KK.
This is not a monster hand and the presence of the other 2 players makes this a fold for me.
Tho they don't put in much aggression these players will surprise you with heroic calls with AK, AQ, and the big pairs they inadvertently trap with. Yeah you have blockers to all those hands but the money talks.
Crying fold. Don’t forget that even with how wide the shove could be, we’re still dominated or crushed a good deal of the time with KQ. This is especially true with V2 still in the hand.
I would never call so this is jam or fold. And I’m folding.
The only person really that we need to worry about (besides the original raiser but he's all in for $30) is V2, so we're essentially playing the hand against this guy (even though we're flipping at best vs the short stack)
I don't think we have much FE vs his strong range.
I was really torn on this because 99% of the time I play this as fold versus jam.
If the initial EP raiser had significant money behind, I mostly fold here cuz I'm so often dominated.
If the two callers were loose gambooley and typical aggro (3betting dominating hands to isolate) I would mostly jam here.
But against a lol loose open but somewhat tightish non-raisey and clueless callers, I was wondering if flatting was defensible. I get to later streets if no one flops TP. I stack TP worse kicker against these clueless guys (whereas I wouldn't be able to do that against regs who realize I can't be bluffing into a protected pot). But I was definitely worried about RIO.
Spoiler
I flat like every fish in the room would do and feel gross doing so.
Q73dd, I donk $50 into $120, V2 folds (whew!), V3 calls (yah!). 6r turn, I shove $130 into $220, he sigh calls... and wins with AQ.
Still feel very out of sorts with this one. Not sure if defensible and I'm just being results oriented.
GonthebrinkofbookingmyfirstlosinmonthsinceJune2023G
Have not looked, but I just fold here.
Just looked: That's why I fold.
But against a lol loose open but somewhat tightish non-raisey and clueless callers, I was wondering if flatting was defensible. I get to later streets if no one flops TP. I stack TP worse kicker against these clueless guys (whereas I wouldn't be able to do that against regs who realize I can't be bluffing into a protected pot). But I was definitely worried about RIO.
You're not deep enough to be playing a medium strength hand OOP against a sticky uncapped player and an ABC player. I really don't think flatting is defensible.
I was really torn on this because 99% of the time I play this as fold versus jam.
If the initial EP raiser had significant money behind, I mostly fold here cuz I'm so often dominated.
If the two callers were loose gambooley and typical aggro (3betting dominating hands to isolate) I would mostly jam here.
But against a lol loose open but somewhat tightish non-raisey and clueless callers, I was wondering if flatting was defensible. I get to later streets if no one flops TP. I stack TP worse kicker
Curious if your usual preference for playing passive-nitty made you hesitate on jamming pre. Impossible to know if a jam would have gotten through, but it might have.
Also curious why you chose to donk flop, and then jam turn when V3 calls. You have him as an ABC player. Doubtful he calls the $30 jam pre and your $50 donk with some sort of draw. Seems more likely he's going to show up with some sort of hand on the turn, and not necessarily worse QX. I doubt he's calling your jam with QJ.
In your OP, you said you'd obviously stack worse TP's on the flop. I'm not so sure. Maybe you stack worse Kx, but it's harder to stack worse Qx.
Not looking to beat you up or make you change your strat. I think my point is that you wanted to fold pre, but didn't, which probably led you to being unsure how to play post-flop. I think the takeaway for you is that you should either go with your instincts and fold, or if you're going to deviate, then deviate huge, by jamming.
I still don't think your pre-flop call was objectively terrible. I just think you abandoned your baseline defensive/passive approach post-flop. You could have checked flop. V3 would have likely bet. You could probably find the fold if he bets huge, or call if he bets small, and then check-evaluate turn and river.
Your basic strat is predicated on your having a skill edge post-flop, but if that edge is diminished by being OOP in a low SPR scenario, then you'd be better off folding, or jamming.
Hope that helps.
