LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
I remember that before Jordan's injury in Game 46 of the 2002 season, he was 1 of 3 guys averaging 25/5/5.
But I meant more the scoring aspect - 25+ ppg - Cade will probably do it on a LOTTERY team - that's the key - on a lottery team, many guys could "iverson it" to 25 and probably 5+ rebounds... Jerry Stackhouse averaged 30 for example... And if Arenas had missed some games in 2005, perhaps even the "lowly" Hughes could've bumped his 22 up to 25 -
Kobe was worse in his second season.
It's okay.
You'll survive.
Everyone can do it. Except they don't.
But before injury mj in 2002 had those stats and everyone said he sucks anyway….
And finish 23/5/5 .
So if he sucked I guess everyone can have those stats on a lottery team ?
If Jordan had shot 47% (what LeBron shot) from the field that year, no one would have said he sucked. But he shot 41%.
Also, fallguy, it you want to put the case forward for Kobe, talking about efficiency is probably not the way to do it.
Also, fallguy, it you want to put the case forward for Kobe, talking about efficiency is probably not the way to do it.
That's why he dodges every time Kobe's efficiency is mentioned. He doesn't judge MJ/Kobe/LeBron on efficiency because it would take Kobe out of the conversation. He uses 250 words to do it, but the numbers don't lie when they're that far off.
I mean there is no case for Kobe other than maybe style point and it looks like he's trying harder.
And you'll survive never understanding basketball
Kobe simply didn't get playing time due to different era but he was better than Lebron from day 1 in the league... Lebron stunk until 2009 by virtue of lottery seasons or bad efficiency vs champs in 07' and 08'.. You simply won't accept these results but they'll never go away...
Lebron has always been a 1-dimensional player with the most turnovers ever, bad FT's, and he can't fit with anyone.. Lebron/Shaq would never get off the ground and one of them would be traded just like Westbrook was... Otoh, while Kobe was a complete player that fit with everyone and elevated Shaq or Pau to champion
I mean there is no case for Kobe other than maybe style point and it looks like he's trying harder.
Kobe > Lebron because he's a complete player (elite on-ball and off), while Lebron's one-dimensional scoring and "bag" skillset suffers from bad chemistry that underperforms favored talent (7 losses with preseason favorite or homecourt).
Kobe was never a bad jumpshooter, FT shooter or turnover machine like Lebron, and Kobe had the fundamentals/skills to dominate the triangle, which is a goat achievement, and which Lebron could never do..
Lebron cannot play"sophisticated" basketball or offense.. He's just a down-hill skillset, and therefore BAD at 5-man basketball.. that's why he underperforms favored talent (7 losses with preseason favorite or home court) and therefore is inferior to Kobe at basketball.
And you'll survive never understanding basketball
Kobe simply didn't get playing time due to different era but he was better than Lebron from day 1 in the league... Lebron stunk until 2009 by virtue of lottery seasons or bad efficiency vs champs in 07' and 08'.. You simply won't accept these results but they'll never go away...
Lebron has always been a 1-dimensional player with the most turnovers ever, bad FT's, and he can't fit with anyone.. Lebron/Shaq would never get off the ground and one of
Kobe wasn't a complete player. He was a great 2-point scorer with balls of steel who played great defense when he didn't have to carry the full offensive load. But there might not be a complete player in the history of the game other than Jordan, but even he was too short to make the impact he could've were he LeBron's size and Jordan took a very long time to work on 3-point shooting.
MJ and Kobe lacked size. MJ lacked 3-point range, but we excuse him for that because of era and he was an ultra-elite 2-point scorer. Kobe also lacked efficiency, consistent defense, and had a limited range on top of lacking size. Size isn't their fault, but they weren't complete. You could say that MJ was complete for his size and era, but that's about it.
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MJ shot 39% on threes in playoff series with 3+ attempts, highlighted below (regular line only):
3-POINT EFFICIENCY FOR ALL REGULAR SEASON GAMES WHERE MJ HAD 3+ ATTEMPTS
1985..... 4-18
1986...... 3-6
1987...... 5-22
1988...... 1-3
1989...... 16-49
1990...... 75-187
1991...... 11-30
1992...... 13-39
1993...... 68-185
__________________________
total....... 196-539 (36.4%)
CONCLUSION: - there's no record of MJ shooting poorly at today's volumes (3+ attempts) - there's only record of him shooting 36-39% at today's volumes without practice so we can be certain that he would shoot 40% or better WITH practice in today's game.
Kobe wasn't a complete player. He was a great 2-point scorer with balls of steel who played great defense when he didn't have to carry the full offensive load. But there might not be a complete player in the history of the game other than Jordan, but even he was too short to make the impact he could've were he LeBron's size and Jordan took a very long time to work on 3-point shooting.
MJ and Kobe lacked size. MJ lacked 3-point range, but we excuse him for that because of era and he was an ultra-e
Lebron is a bad defender and never made all-defense in his 30's, so he doesn't compare to Kobe or Jordan defensively - don't be ridiculous.
And there's no size argument because Shaq, Hakeem or Rudy Gobert are bigger than Lebron.. So size has nothing to do with the goat debate.. That's just another dumb argument because there's no actual basketball case for Lebron.
There's no basketball case because Lebron produces trash teams regardless of cast.. It's due to his one-dimensional ball-dominant skillset - a high-scoring ball-dominator.. He could never tolerate the triangle for a single practice let alone 3-peat with it.. Lebron's simpleton skillset doesn't allow sophisticated basketball or offense, so he's nowhere near Kobe.
Finally, Jordan or Kobe were much better 3-point shooters than Lebron because Jordan never shot poorly at today's volumes (3+ attempts), while Lebron does all the time.. Specifically, Jordan avoided threes and had very low "bailout volume" for most of his career (forced threes at end of shot-clock) - this accounts for the lower CAREER efficiency from three because everyone shoots poorly at bailout volume... But aside from the bailout volume, Jordan always shot great and better than Lebron when he had today's volumes (3+attempts).. See stats in previous post for backup.
So you were wrong on every point.. Regarding impact, MJ and Kobe won far more with far less - they're impact is far greater than Lebron... Only Lebron routinely underperforms favored talent (7 losses with preseason favorite or homecourt).. tldr: Lebron's skillset produces low team ceiling (weak teams regardless of cast)
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MJ officially the defensive GOAT
MJ officially the defensive GOAT
The last playoffs exposed another 7-foot rim protector - this time it was Rudy - guys like Rudy, DeAndre or Hakeem are obsolete and unplayable in today's "pick your defender" format of high-screen rolls, which boosts great perimeter defenders over big men by virtue of transferring over eras better..
It's interesting that hybrid bigs like AD, Garnett, Rasheed Wallace or Larry Nance are more valuable in today's era than the 7-footers like Hakeem.. Meanwhile, David Robinson probably leap-frogs Hakeem in today's era for the same reason plus the potential range on his jumper.
So putting MJ as the goat defender is the truth and it makes sense that the GOAT would be the best on both sides of the ball, aka 10x scoring champ and perennial DPOY, or one of the runner-ups... He was also the goat defensive leader by virtue of poor athletes like Paxson, Kerr, or BJ always playing solid defense - the story was never how Jordan's role players dropped the ball defensively... MJ elevated them and his fearlessness permeated the team, while his scoring diversity/offensive chemistry facilitated defensive chemistry...
The last playoffs exposed another 7-foot rim protector - this time it was Rudy - guys like Rudy, DeAndre or Hakeem are obsolete and unplayable in today's "pick your defender" format of high-screen rolls, which boosts great perimeter defenders over big men by virtue of transferring over eras better..
It's interesting that hybrid bigs like AD, Garnett, Rasheed Wallace or Larry Nance are more valuable in today's era than the 7-footers like Hakeem.. Meanwhile, David Robinson probably leap-frogs Hake
I agree that Robinson would probably be the best player in today's NBA, but just as Jordan would've been a really good 3-point shooter in today's NBA, Hakeem could guard anyone in today's NBA. Sean David had a great breakdown recently:
Hakeem would destroy today's NBA, you don't even know, dude.
If Jordan had shot 47% (what LeBron shot) from the field that year, no one would have said he sucked. But he shot 41%.
Well he was shooting a bit better in FG % pre Injury and was in an ascending trend in fg% and pts .
Now yes playing like 10+ games massively injured he finished at 22.9 pts and 41% FG .
But a healthy mj was shooting better and would probably end up the season much higher , specifically with better look at shooting when his number 2 would eventually comeback .
Jordan's numbers were also improving as the season went on.
In his last 20 games up to the injury he averaged
27.5 - 6.4 - 5.2 - 1.3 - 0.5 on 44%
In his last 10 games up to the injury he averaged
29.7 - 6.6 - 6.1 - 1.2 - 0.3 on 47%
This improvement in his numbers could have been due to
1. healing from his tendinitis and knee problems
2. adjustment to joining a new team and coming off a 3 year layoff
3. or a combination of these factors
I mean the guy at 39/40 was able to finish 20 ppg at 44% FG on one freakn leg .
I can’t imagine people believe he wouldn’t do better healthy ..
And you'll survive never understanding basketball
Kobe simply didn't get playing time due to different era but he was better than Lebron from day 1 in the league... Lebron stunk until 2009 by virtue of lottery seasons or bad efficiency vs champs in 07' and 08'.. You simply won't accept these results but they'll never go away...
Lebron has always been a 1-dimensional player with the most turnovers ever, bad FT's, and he can't fit with anyone.. Lebron/Shaq would never get off the ground and one of
Spoiler
Congrats MJ for having a good 10 game stretch in 2 seasons I guess.
Sorry, fallguy has said you can't use injuries as excuses.
I mean Kyrie > Pippen, but can't use him being out as an excuse.
Love = Luka, but can't use him out as being an excuse.
I agree that Robinson would probably be the best player in today's NBA, but just as Jordan would've been a really good 3-point shooter in today's NBA, Hakeem could guard anyone in today's NBA. Sean David had a great breakdown recently:
There was no high-screen-roll in the 80's or 90's, so Hakeem never had to defend 25 and 30 feet from the hoop against the Isiah's and MJ's of the league... Otoh, today's new format of high-screen roll has made 7-foot rim protectors completely obsolete.
Accordingly, if Hakeem was caught on an island 25 to 30 feet from the hoop against guys like D'Aaron Fox, Lillard, Curry, or MJ, it would be considered a massive mismatch and the entire crowd would let out a collective "gasp".
It would be considered a joke and no coach would allow it to occur repeatedly.. So Hakeem would frequently be unplayable in today's game just like Rudy, DeAndre Jordan and many bigs are obsolete in today's playoff basketball and high-screen-roll format.
Since today's format makes 7-footers like Hakeem and Rudy obsolete, this makes MJ the greatest defender of all time by virtue of being able to transfer over the eras better.
There was no high-screen-roll in the 80's or 90's, so Hakeem never had to defend 25 and 30 feet from the hoop against the Isiah's and MJ's of the league... Otoh, today's new format of high-screen roll has made 7-foot rim protectors completely obsolete.
Accordingly, if Hakeem was caught on an island 25 to 30 feet from the hoop against guys like D'Aaron Fox, Lillard, Curry, or MJ, it would be considered a massive mismatch and the entire crowd would let out a collective "gasp".
It would be considered
Again, if Hakeem had to be an anchor like AD, KG, or Sheed, he'd have been just fine.
I actually forgot that Dell Harris didn't start Kobe in Year 2 either - Kobe played 20 MPG in the 98' Playoffs and didn't start a single game.
But it's funny how life works because when everything hit the fan, Dell chose Kobe to take the 4 biggest shots of the game - they were all airballs because Dell hadn't prepared Kobe by starting him as a rookie and sophomore..
Thanks for that reminder of how historically-bad Dell Harris was.
AD, KG and Sheed are known for being super-quick string beans (skinny), while Hakeem is a slow plodder by comparison with a thickness, height and build that mirrors Rudy.. Hakeem isn't nearly a quick as the super-skinny guys like KG or AD, while being 30 pounds heavier and a couple inches taller..
7-footers like Hakeem and Rudy cannot defend 25-30 feet from the basket as today's format requires.. So when you bring up the super-skinny 6'10" guys that CAN play today's format - this only drives the point home further about the frequent obsolescence of 7-footers in today's game.
You're saying Hakeem would be an anchor like AD but he's built nothing like them - he's built more like Rudy and DeAndre Jordan, so he'd be an anchor like them and therefore frequently obsolete and unplayable.
