1/3 600 EFF

I'm fine with first call. You are OOP, which is never good in NL, but PPs are *relatively* easier to play OOP than say SCs.

On the second decision, I think it's close, but it depends on how likely you're going to get paid off by CO and/or BB. Can you descriobe them?

In a vaccum without doing the calcs and assuming the villains are unknown, I think I throw in the call closing the action.

CO seems solid, and BB seems standardish? His 3b is prob 99% never a bluff. I would prob say JJ+. Hard to say if i get paid (without telling u what happened). But without reads, calling both times ok?

**nvm i read what you wrote on the end about calling**

I think calling both times is fine if there is a chance you can/will get paid.

I think the first flat is defensible and it would be my default. Not loving being OOP and the first flatter, but still very good chance this goes multiway deep and we can ~setmine plus even a chance we win postflop UI.

Think I fold to the 3bet. Only getting about 12:1 against 3better, and while we're getting better against other guy it will be OOP in likely a protected pot (which will be much more difficult to get paid off in).

GcluelessNLnoobG

Maybe my math is off but this makes it a call.

Plenty of IO and not very much RIO.

Pretty straight forward call.

We hit our set about 8:1.

Some of the time they whiff their AK/etc.

Some of the time they don't pay off stacks with KK on A8x, QQ on K8x, etc.

And RIO is most definitely a thing we have to factor in. Even in the best case scenario where we get in stacks with our set versus an overpair on the flop, we still lose by the river about 10% of the time.

Give me in position and raise/caller is a moran, it becomes closer. But OOP with CO described as solid, and only getting 12:1 against 3bettor (our main target), hardly a straightforward call, imo.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Getting 12:1 is pretty thin for set-mining, unless your opponent is a spew monkey or an OMC who is never folding his AA.

With smaller GTO-sized raises and 3-bets (and without the limpers) the solver considers 88 a snap call for the 3-bet. However, given the larger PF raises, the pot is so bloated that 88 may be forced to fight for it, despite being OOP to the 3-bettor who is looking at a flop SPR < 2.5

Hmmm...it's close.

I don't mind 3B'ing out of the SB with 88. Think I'd prefer it when there are multiple limpers we can squeeze.

The second call is debatable. I've made similar calls, getting similar IO, with lower PP's. Sometimes it works out, sometimes, not so much.

BB looks like a fish raising 3x OOP after a cold caller. At this point I would probably call, just 40 more and set mining.

I think call or 3b can both make sense preflop. It depends though, if CO isos wide 3betting can be good either to take it down or play heads up. At the same time, I would like a chance to stack either UTG or MP, especially if they are deep. UTG is almost certainly a fish limping first in and MP is a fish fairly often as well (although him limping behind can be okay). These are the types of situations where you might decide to flat out of the SB, despite the pretty large iso sizing.

And you only need to get through BB not squeezing for the most part. And you're going to end up folding a lot of flops where you don't hit an 8 right off the bat if you call. But you can make up for that when you do hit a set.

In regard to set mining odds, there’s also already $140 in the pot before your $40 call which is significant. I think I call twice but don’t love it either time.

Calling.

With limpers in there I would not call preflop, I don't want to be multiway OOP with a medium pair. I would probably fold by default (CO has bet on the large side after all), 3betting 99+, although with this in between hand there's probably not much between all three options.

You're getting 3.5/1 on your second call - you'd firmly expect to make back enough money to cover this when you do hit your set, so call now.(Also yes BB is probably pretty face up which is nice).

FWIW, I included this in my IO calcs of 12:1 IO against the BB, which I actually mathed slightly wrong plus didn't factor in taxes (it's actually closer to 11:1 against the BB).

Git'sverythin,imoG

FWIW, i called and went 3w to flop.

KJ8r

x, BB bet 80 into 200ish, leaving behind 300ish.BU took a long time to fold which made me think he had some sort of K or J. Not that it matters but it pushed me to be less scared of a higher set (but never folding at this point). I jammed and he snapped AA, hit an 8 on a turn gg.

Was thinking maybe it’s better to call with just pot left at the end in the tiny chance he betting QQ and could fold (but feel inclined to call river when it goes xx on turn).

Pretty good example of IO vs RIO. He's probably not calling a jam with QQ/TT. Meanwhile AA/AK has 15 combos (which will suck out about 10% of the time by the river) and KK/JJ has 6 combos. Not exactly a landslide profitable call preflop getting only ~11:1 against him.

Gnothatin',justsayin'G

I wouldn't worry too much about QQ. You want to stack AA and AK. I guess if v has a hand like AQ you might want to keep his bluffs in, but I think the hand will play out around the same EV whether you call or jam here. The nice thing about this spot pre is that when v goes 60 OOP vs a 20 open, you know he is probably a fish. This makes it slightly more likely he will pay you off with an overpair or top pair if you hit your set. For the same reason, I really see merit to flatting pre to keep the limpers in. When you 3bet and isolate CO, the times you hit a set become a far smaller source of your EV. You're relying more on him whiffing the flop or even getting better to fold when the flop comes out good for your range.

In tougher games the value of isolating goes up when it less likely for fish to enter the pot, more likely you get squeezed, and you are less likely to win 10x what you called pre because people can hand read better and a lot of the time they will bet fold flop with air anyways. The times you do hit a set, you are still frequently not getting paid enough. And the times you don't make a set vs strong players the more likely they are to push you off your hand even eith the best hand.

In a vacuum, I think mlark makes good points, about the value of flatting pre, enough that I almost want to change my earlier answer. In game, it would help to have some sense of what sort of hands UTG and MP have when they limp-call.

If we think they limp-call a single raise with 99/TT, but fold to a 3B, then all the more reason to ISO. Also kind of wonder how the equities look if we let them see a flop with all their SC's and other hands that will fold to a 3B.

Flatting to keep the SPR low and set mine makes sense, especially if we flop a set on an otherwise disconnected board. But with no idea what the limpers' ranges look like, it could be tough to navigate post flop from OOP and multi-way on a lot of board textures.

Like, what are we doing on Ts9s8x? What about 8x7s6s? Donking? For what size? Check-raising?