Should I call this river check-raise?

Should I call this river check-raise?

Hi all,

Played this hand today at my local $2/$5 game.

Action folds to me in the button. I look down at T9 and open to $15. SB folds and a regular rec opponent of mine calls in the BB. I have $500 behind and I have him covered.

The flop comes down 997 and villain leads for $20. I call.

The turn is the 6. Villian bets $60, I call.

The river is the K. Villain checks, I bet $125 for value. Villain waits for a moment and then jams for $400.

Hero...?

08 September 2024 at 02:56 AM
Reply...

199 Replies

5
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It's a really weird line, but big river raises are so underbluffed

Slow played KK pre? A9? K9? Busted draw? T8?

I really want to call, but you gotta tell me you think he's capable of bluffing here before I do.


Yeah it really was a strangely played hand by him. He can be an unorthodox player and certainly have KK here. My main concern was K9. But he can also have missed clubs and total airballs. Recently he has been experimenting with getting much more aggressive and has dropped a lot cash in doing so. However my read with how he made the river bet was that he was pretty confident and strong. But this can certainly be a bluff.


yes i would call. weird line, good blockers, good pot odds, we're underepped, questionable how light he can go for value, blah blah. if you lose, well sometimes bad things happen to good people

if you're looking for elite live player skills, i would tank for like 30 seconds before calling and if you win tell him you almost folded. would want him to think this is good play and unlucky if he was torching


This is a leveling war. V has the range and nut advantage until the river - V has way more 9x than V. But I feel like he needs to have Kx to xr here, most probably KcXc or Khxh, because he needs to block our AK/KK. Yes he can have the case 9x or 77 too. Otherwise he has total air. V has taken a polar line the whole way post-flop.

We're getting better than 2-1 - I think we're too high in our range to fold and we have many relevant blockers.


Regular rec opponent, so do you have any reads?

Definitely a call in theory (basically the perfect hand to show up with here), but there are plenty of rec-fish where you just shouldn’t pay them off once they start donking and raising.

This is right around the stakes where some recs start to get some moxie though…


Sick hand. How does he see you? The check/raise on the river is troubling. Really not sure what I would do w/o being at the table.


by submersible k

yes i would call. weird line, good blockers, good pot odds, we're underepped, questionable how light he can go for value, blah blah. if you lose, well sometimes bad things happen to good people

if you're looking for elite live player skills, i would tank for like 30 seconds before calling and if you win tell him you almost folded. would want him to think this is good play and unlucky if he was torching

Yeah this was a really close decision for me. Of course I'm not beating almost zero value hands, so my hand is just a bluff catcher. I agree that I'm under-repped and that that puts some more weight on the calling side of the scales.

Nice idea with the tanking, then calling and saying that I almost folded. Will keep that in mind for the future.


by Spanishmoon k

This is a leveling war. V has the range and nut advantage until the river - V has way more 9x than V. But I feel like he needs to have Kx to xr here, most probably KcXc or Khxh, because he needs to block our AK/KK. Yes he can have the case 9x or 77 too. Otherwise he has total air. V has taken a polar line the whole way post-flop.

We're getting better than 2-1 - I think we're too high in our range to fold and we have many relevant blockers.

Yes that's true, villain has a lot more 9x. I'd say he has nut advantage but not range advantage on this board (but I could be wrong). This villain can have KK here and won't always 3bet in in the BB vs BTN. My biggest concern was K9, which may well take this line - but of course it's best to think in terms of ranges rather than specific hands. So of course he can have some bluffs here too like missed clubs etc. I don't think he would lead the flop with pocket sevens, but it's not impossible. I'd argue that he was polarized postflop until the check on the river, and then "reploarized" with the check-raise. But of course game theory would expect him to be check-raising the flop (rather than donking) with his polarized range.

The price was good but at the end of the day my hand is only a bluff catcher (albeit with decent blockers) and as we all know, players just don't raise river bets with air much at all at low stakes.


by RaiseAnnounced k

Regular rec opponent, so do you have any reads?

Definitely a call in theory (basically the perfect hand to show up with here), but there are plenty of rec-fish where you just shouldn’t pay them off once they start donking and raising.

This is right around the stakes where some recs start to get some moxie though…

About having reads - nothing specific really except that he's an unorthodox player and we battle in hands fairly regularly. That said, it's not like him to donk much at all (or even to check-raise, in fact). Recently he's been attempting to broaden his game, specifically with getting a lot more LAGGY (he dropped a couple of thousand last weekend and a couple of buy-ins during the week). He knows that I'm a tight player and sticky postflop, but also that when I bet the river after he checks that I can be bluffing very easily as he's "shown weakness" with the check. However the main read for this hand is the manner in which he made the river bet, which had an essence of confidence and being carefree. I've played him several times a week for the last couple of years, and he's not a player who throws caution to the wind when piling in buy-ins (at least, not until recently, when he decided to get more creative than usual).

Yes I imagine my hand is a call at equilibrium. But what about after adjusting for low stakes player tendencies? My hand is just a bluff catcher at the end of the day. I need to win the hand (275/990) x100 (27% of the time) to break even. Is his hand a bluff (or a rare value cut) 27% of the time? I'm not so sure.


by Javanewt k

Sick hand. How does he see you? The check/raise on the river is troubling. Really not sure what I would do w/o being at the table.

He sees me as a solid player who has been winning in this game consistently for a couple of years. He knows I can be bluffing when I bet the river after he checks to me, and also that I have zero qualms in playing for stacks at these stakes - in other words, he can't coerce me to fold due to the dollar values involved. The river check-raise is certainly troubling and just stinks of value to me. It was a very close spot and I tanked for a long time before coming to my eventual decision.


Sounds like reads cut both ways, which makes me inclined to play standard with what is not only a great bluff catcher but also beating the occasional 98o and 92s you’ll see here.

I hate to payoff non-maniac recs when they announce they like their hand by donking the flop and taking an aggressive line on every street thereafter, but the blind vs button factor kind of counterbalances that. Sounds like there’s a high degree of uncertainty with what his exploitative tendencies are at the moment, and making a bad fold with this hand is a bigger strategic disaster than making a bad call.

This is maybe the weakest part of my game though so feel free to listen to literally anyone else on this ‘😃


by RaiseAnnounced k

Sounds like reads cut both ways, which makes me inclined to play standard with what is not only a great bluff catcher but also beating the occasional 98o and 92s you’ll see here.

I hate to payoff non-maniac recs when they announce they like their hand by donking the flop and taking an aggressive line on every street thereafter, but the blind vs button factor kind of counterbalances that. Sounds like there’s a high degree of uncertainty with what his exploitative tendencies are at the moment, and

Yes the reads certainly go both ways here. But I have a hard time believing much 9x that is worse than my hand is check-raising this river for value. Such hands certainly might make interesting bluff candidates, but I'm 99% sure this player was not doing that in this hand.

I also hate paying off non-maniacs with bad calls on my part. He is certainly capable of bluffing here but I don't think it's a bluff 27% of the time. I would guess it's closer to 10%.

Personally I think the general player pool are significantly value heavy in spots like this, and overfolding is the correct adjustment. The issue of course is my hand strength being fairly high up in my range, and if I fold here every time then I'm surely overfolding relative to equilibrium. So I guess the question becomes - what is the cutoff point for calling in terms of hand strength when faced with the river raise? I don't think I'm getting here with any straights, as they probably raise the turn. I get here with some boats that I imagine are all calling. So perhaps I call with my best trips are fold the worst ones?

I'm not at my desk right now but will take a look tomorrow with a range explorer and try and figure out the hands I'm meant to call with to meet MDF in this spot. Personally I think that's kind of a crude way to approach these spots (and generally results in calling down too wide) but it's still another perspective to consider.


by Telemakus k

$2/$5

H on BTN T9 open $15.
SB folds
BB reg. rec opponent of mine calls in the BB. $495 effective

POT: $32
The flop comes down 997 and villain leads for $20. I call.

POT: $72
The turn is the 6. Villian bets $60, I call.

POT: $192
The river is the K. Villain checks, I bet $125 for value. Villain waits for a moment and then jams for $400.

Hero...?

Do you just cover, or cover by a lot?

Why did you call the flop? (I'm not saying it's bad, just think of your reason before we continue...)

Now why are you betting over half pot on the river?
What other hands are you calling flop with and betting river for 125 ... AcKc? AA? Do you just call turn with T8?
What hands do you think he bets/bets/checks that call a 125 bet?

I mean, yeh, you have a 9 and "blockers" to the straight/FH and "unblockers" to flush draws ... but when elite pros. talk about how blockers aren't worth as much as everyone says, pretty sure they mean things like this.
Are you really bet/folding Qc9x here?
Or are you just bet/calling almost every 9x?

I would mostly be fine with it if you raised flop and stacked off in a few different ways, but this way seems one of the worst. He has to have decided you are bluffing a bunch and so he's going to rebluff the river, or more likely he doesn't care because he has A9+.
Maybe he is bluffing 10% or more, but vs. most V's I think it's more likely he's overplaying J9.

River feels like street poker and I would lean heavily towards fold in a vacuum, but maybe the streets say otherwise.


idk it looks like a spaz by him on every street lol. would be careful about trying to estimate bluffing frequencies in a line that you are never going to get a conclusive sample on (this is very different than most river xr spots because of flop / turn leads), like its actually a super complicated line for value would need to see it for the price i'm getting


Give pot sizes. The hand is a great one to post. More people will enjoy it if you relieve them of the arithmetic .

Fold pre. The value of T9o on the button comes from position, but your read on V is too poor to use it. How can your have "nothing specific" on the V if you "battle in hands with him regularly?" In a later post, you call him an "unorthodox player," a laggy wannabee bleeding money by "experimenting with getting more aggressive." You are nonetheless surprised that he donks the flop after defending his blind. You say "it's not like him to check-raise here." If you've watched him play hundreds of hands, you should have specific info about why is he losing so much money. Have you paid attention to his hole cards? What hands does he play too wide? Is he making too many bluffs? Have you ever seen him make a big bluff the river or the turn? If attention to detail isn't your strength, and you lack this information, just fold pre.

AP, it's a gross spot. On the one hand, the typical rec has it when he raises big on the turn and river. Unless I've seen a player make big bluffs, I always fold. Laggy wannabes lose money by bluffing the river too much. If you play with a LAG regularly, their bluffing draws attention to themselves. So you should have seen a big bluff by now. On the other hand, you have to be right only 27 percent of the time to call. Your imperfect read suggests this hand may be one of his first big river bluffs.

Lacking the information, I fold the river. I'd also accept puke call and prepare to reload.


by adonson k

Give pot sizes. The hand is a great one to post. More people will enjoy it if you relieve them of the arithmetic .

+1

OTTH
Preflop seems marginal to me, unless we have some reads on the blinds, like they tend to under-defend pre, or play abc postflop, something like this.
Not a big deal anyway.

I have seen a similar action (BB leading flop on a paired board) a couple of times, and V had an overpair, fwiw.
I don't mind calling flop, although a case can be made for raising.

Likewise, calling turn looks fine.

River is really weird: indeed the only hands which make full sense are K9, but V can have K9o only, and KK, but this looks like the worst pp to flat pre with, imho.
I really don't know, but if you think you beat only a bluff, then I'd lean towards a fold, as in my experience paired boards are underbluffed.


Thinking about this more, but it's not helping. I'm stuck here (thanks, adonson): With the new V information, I puke call and prepare to reload, I'd also accept a fold on the river.


by adonson k

Give pot sizes. The hand is a great one to post. More people will enjoy it if you relieve them of the arithmetic .

Fold pre. The value of T9o on the button comes from position, but your read on V is too poor to use it.

Was going to comment similar. He posts an OP with 0 info. Then 2 posts later has all these reads and notes on villain, then in the next posts says he has nothing.
This doesn't make sense to me..

But he can also have missed clubs and total airballs. Recently he has been experimenting with getting much more aggressive and has dropped a lot cash in doing so.

Don't understand how we say this and then also consider a fold.


by Telemakus k

regular rec opponent of mine calls in the BB.

You should really expand on this players read since it's a regular opponent of yours. It makes a huge different in whether we call or fold otr.

From the surface it looks like a pretty easy fold.


by Spanishmoon k

This is a leveling war. V has the range and nut advantage until the river - V has way more 9x than V. But I feel like he needs to have Kx to xr here, most probably KcXc or Khxh, because he needs to block our AK/KK. Yes he can have the case 9x or 77 too. Otherwise he has total air. V has taken a polar line the whole way post-flop.

We're getting better than 2-1 - I think we're too high in our range to fold and we have many relevant blockers.

Agreeing with this. What's V's perception of you, besides "solid player", "can bluff river", and isn't afraid of the money?

I.e., how many 9s does H have in their range, BU v BB, and that go c/c/bet? On a two suit board with some straight potential? I don't think V perceives H as having a lot of 9x. Some, but a much broader range than that.

Trying to put myself in V's shoes and determine if V thinks Kxcc has showdown value or if V thinks they need to turn it into a bluff to win. They shouldn't, I mean I'd calling as V, but who can tell with live players beginning to use their LAG training wheels?

Probably calling. Then berating myself as I reload.


sad but sounds like op folded so we never get results :(


by illiterat k

Do you just cover, or cover by a lot?

Why did you call the flop? (I'm not saying it's bad, just think of your reason before we continue...)

Now why are you betting over half pot on the river?
What other hands are you calling flop with and betting river for 125 ... AcKc? AA? Do you just call turn with T8?
What hands do you think he bets/bets/checks that call a 125 bet?

I mean, yeh, you have a 9 and "blockers" to the straight/FH and "unblockers" to flush draws ... but when elite pros. talk about how bl

Thanks for clarifying how to post hands, I'll do it as you indicated from now on.

I'm calling flop to keep his bluffs in, but I will also raise sometimes here too.

I bet the river to get value from the hands in his range that checked and want a cheap showdown (Kx, small pair + flush draw hands etc). Once he checks the river I take his range to be pretty capped most of the time, so I'm betting any Kx of clubs for value too, as well as AA and perhaps some pocket sevens and sixes. I probably lean towards raising with T8 on the turn but I'll definitely mix in calls too.

I think he can certainly play many Kx hands here as a bet/bet/check-call; mostly the flush draws, of which he should have plenty after calling in the BB vs BTN.

I agree that blockers are overvalued in general, but in this case I certainly have good blockers/unblockers to support calling, and this combo is be higher EV to call with that other T9 combos. However I think other considerations are more important here; namely how rarely the river is raised (and particularly check-raised) as a bluff in low stakes poker.

Looking at my range I think I have to call with some 9x here. So I think at the end of the day I call with my strongest 9x that beat the combos of 9x that he decided to play this way, and fold the weakest 9x. I'm going to check the MDF later today but I expect that will be approximately correct.

Ultimately I feel that this is rarely a bluff, and certainly not a bluff the 27% of the time that's required for me to call and break even.


I guess my issue here is that the average player never c/r a 9 on the flop here. It’s always a slow play. I call and hate it


by submersible k

idk it looks like a spaz by him on every street lol. would be careful about trying to estimate bluffing frequencies in a line that you are never going to get a conclusive sample on (this is very different than most river xr spots because of flop / turn leads), like its actually a super complicated line for value would need to see it for the price i'm getting

It did indeed feel spazzy.

Sure, I agree that bluffing frequencies are difficult to gauge accurately here and it's an extremely rare and unusual line. Specifically it's the river check-raise that I feel is particularly underbluffed.

I don't think the price justifies the call here (but I could be wrong).

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