Upcoming Gambling Regulation in Ireland

Even more will come hahaha. Be prepared, what we are going to see in the future will make you puke.

The regulations in england have already ruined it for your regular punter.

It's disgusting. Can go buy 5 grands worth of lottery tickets but I can't go spend 5 grand on poker cause it possibly hurts me.

Same for I'm free to drink ethanol 7 nights a week or smoke tobacco but I can't gamble. **** the lot of these powers to be, off to be a normal person whatever that is

How long before the part in bold changes? Smoking outdoors at pubs and in parks is already under attack and drink is being targeted too. Mark my words this will get worse not better.

I received an email from GG today, and I believe we should all make the effort to contact our local representatives, as mentioned in the email below:

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Dear player,

As you may know, the Gambling Regulation Bill 2022 is currently making its way through the Irish legislature and is likely to be enacted soon. It is due to be discussed in the Seanad in the coming weeks.

At present, poker is grouped with other gambling games, such as slots and casino games, in the proposed legislation. If this remains the case once the bill is enacted and the regulations are finalized, the proposed maximum bet per game will be €10 and the maximum winnings per game will be €3,000. This could have a significant impact on your choice of poker games post-regulation.

We fully support sensible regulation, which avoids driving players to black-market operators, where game integrity and account security cannot be guaranteed.

We believe that Senators and TDs may want to hear from members of the public who are concerned about the impact this bill could have. It may be helpful to emphasize that poker is a skill game, unlike slots or casino games, and should be regulated differently.

Please consider contacting your representatives [list of Senators here: https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/members/sen... and let’s work together to ensure that the great Irish poker community can continue to enjoy our favorite card game in a safe and responsible way.

Best of luck,
GGPoker

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I have contacted all Galway representatives on my behalf. Please make the effort to do the same! It can’t hurt, and hopefully, they will reconsider. If they don’t, we may be forced to play on unregulated sites, which is not something we want to be a part of.

Well lads, said i would make an account to post this email, a quick easy copy paste for anyone with little time just change the constituency name at top and bottom!

Dia dhuit a chara,

I'm writing to you in relation to the upcoming Gambling Regulation Bill (2022) that is set to be voted on in the Seanad in October and following that, the Dail. This email will be sent to all Meath-West TD's and relevant Senators of the Seanad.

At present, online poker is grouped with other no skill gambling games, such as slots and casino games, in the proposed legislation. This is due to poker not be classed as a 'skilled' game in the legislation. This could not be further from the truth as myself and many other poker payers in Ireland have put in hundreds if not thousands of hours into studying the game to improve our skills.
We are aware this is not well understood as poker is often thrown in with generic gambling like slots or casino games where there is no skill edge. However, an exception in the bill has been made for horse racing and sports betting as they are deemed as 'skilled'. Any poker player or sports bettor will tell to far more work and effort goes into improving at poker than standard betting so in my view the absence of poker from this legislation is bizarre.

If the bill remains unchanged, once the bill is enacted and the regulations are finalized, the proposed maximum bet per game will be €10 and the maximum winnings per game will be €3,000.
This would be absolutely disastrous for Irish poker players who are professional, semi- professional and even recreational players. A professional poker player in Ireland can go through thousands in Buy Ins per day so its obvious how this will cripple their income. The bill in current form will force safe, regulated poker sites from the Irish market and force players to go to unsafe , unregulated overseas sites where collusion and cheating is rampant. Due to this, I suspect many full-time players may be left out of a job. It is worth pointing out that I believe the vast majority of poker players in Ireland support increased legislation and scrutiny on highly addictive, no skill casino games & slots.

My aim with this email is to try to get poker included in the exception in the bill with horse racing and sports betting where to be honest it should already be, it is a major mistake by legislators not to have it there already. Make no mistake there are hundreds of incomes and part-incomes at risk.

I hope to hear from you soon regarding this
Go raibh maith agat

NAME/ from x constituency

good first effort. think some of the language in here, whilst perfectly clear to us, will cause trouble for MPs, and might have the adverse effect.

if i get time, I'll have a crack at improving this

Dia dhuit a chara,

I'm writing to you concerning the upcoming Gambling Regulation Bill (2022), set to be voted on in the Seanad in October and following that, the Dail. I write on behalf of professional poker players across Ireland, for whom playing is treated much like a sporting endeavour (e.g. hurling, soccer) and livelihood.

Presently, the bill considers online poker (against other human players, not the House), to be a no-skill game, alongside slots and blackjack. This declaration would suggest that no person could generate a liveable income through the pursuit of playing poker. Seventy years of poker history proves this couldn't be further from the truth.

Poker as a profession came into the mainstream in Ireland in the 1990s, as online poker websites started to appear. The marriage of poker and the Internet enabled anyone to develop enough skills to beat their opponents, winning money in the process. Much like at in-person games in clubs across the Republic, the money won can be substantial enough to supplement an income, in place of a more common profession.

Professional poker players are most famously represented by high-stakes pros such as Daniel Negreanu, a man with over $46M in poker earnings. But these players are not threatened by this bill - it's those players who have worked for years to get to the point of generating a modest income through poker. He who does not gamble thousands of dollars in one night, but he who trains hard and plays long hours.

The declaration in the bill that horse-betting and sports-betting could be skill games, and that poker isn't, is ludicrous. Bookmakers operate under the "illusion" that if gamblers know something or have an intuition, they can make the right selections. In reality, the game is rigged from the beginning, with bookmakers offering payouts that ensure the player can never find a statistical "edge". Much like the House in Blackjack and Roulette, you seldom see a bookmaker have a losing year.

The bill proposes that the maximum bet possible on any game would be €10, with a maximum win possible of €3,000. This legislation is very applicable to tradition pit games, like Roulette or Slots, but is not well-tailored to suit poker. Poker operates in two formats, "cash games", where players play with real money and "tournaments", where players compete in a last-man-standing format, with the longest-lasting players winning a portion of a prize pot.

Currently, Ireland is open to the global market of online poker, with Irish players able to win money from foreign players, bringing money into the economy of Ireland. Without getting too technical, lots of these games operate with a maximum bet greater than €10, and both cash games and tournaments can provide winnings of greater than €3,000.

The online poker market will not shape itself around the restrictions imposed by this bill. Online websites will do one of two things:

1 - They will pull their offerings out of Ireland. This will reduce the taxable income the government receives on poker from the operators. Irish poker players will be forced to emigrate from the country to retain access to the global market, or they will have to re-skill and rejoin the economy at the lowest rungs.

2 - The most generous of online poker operators will create a ring-fenced market for Irish players only. They won't have access to the global market, so no money will be able to flow in from other countries to the Irish economy. The games will adhere to the imposed bet/winnings limits, which will strip Irish poker players of the ability to generate an income and create an environment where no player will wish to interact. The operators will abandon their efforts shortly after, pulling taxable income out of Ireland.

Furthermore, the prohibition of poker will lead to illegal unregulated gambling, promoting organised crime and leaving Ireland's most vulnerable gamblers in greater danger.

This "one size fits all" legislation doesn't hold when applied to poker. Poker needs to be declared as a "skill game" akin to horses/sports to protect Ireland's poker players and strengthen its economy.

If you have questions or would like more technical details, please respond to this email and I will be happy to oblige.

Go raibh maith agat

NAME/ from x constituency

Much improved thanks mate! Writing was never a big strength of mine..

Anyone know which senators in the seanad would be best to email?

What kind of poker regulations are in England that make it prohitive @ jayme87 ?

Nice job @ norwich

Thanks.

In the UK, we have a number of measures that are either for AML (Anti-Money Laundering) or KYC (Know Your Customer - Gambling Safety). Off the top of my head:

• Most online sites have a monthly net deposit limit of £500 (Deposits - Withdrawals). You need to prove your funds are legitimate via providing income/statements to do this.
  
• Most sites in the UK aren't comfortable offering services to the previously self-excluded. It's tough to get access to gambling once you've done that, even after your time period of exclusion is over.
  
• Providers have a duty to require SOF (Source of Funds) from customers after either: Too many gambling days in a time-period, Too High of a Volume of Bets in a time-period, Too High losses lifetime. These limits are lower for students, under-25s and vulnerable groups
  

These things alone create a tough environment for legitimate poker.

• Regs can't get enough money onto sites to play their usual stakes
  
• Whales usually get banned from games quickly for refusing to provide SOF
  
• Young pros get banned frequently for failing to provide SOF
  

Essentially not enough money, reg or whale, is coming into the casinos, so big games aren't running frequently enough. People don't trust the gambling institutions with their records, or are just criminals (a lot of whales are). This is why our scene isn't thriving like it used to - most big players have been KYC'd.

Isn't the 500$ deposit limit the default limit, but only if you want to deposit more than that per month, you need to provide source of income?

Thanks for the support guys. So, I've spammed every TD/Senator over the last few months making detailed arguments against this aspect of the bill. Hopefully, there isn't a hitman out for me at this point. Feel free to voice your concerns if you have some time to spare. I think the next couple of weeks will be crucial. One mad thing someone mentioned to me is that the Irish Open, the oldest poker tournament in Europe and the second oldest in the world after the WSOP can't run under this legislation.

Bill:

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/bills/bill/2022/114/

oireachtas

Gambling Regulation Act 2024

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/members/tds/?tab=party&party=

oireachtas

Find a TD

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/members/senators/?tab=party&party=

oireachtas

Find a Senator

Just want to say well done to both of you on writing those letters. Top class.

The thing is that Ireland doesn't represent a large enough market for any of the big players in the market. I know that Flutter stood to lose a lot as they possess a lot of brands that do well there, but poker alone just isn't a substantial enough revenue stream for anyone to go to war over. Flutter have made some efforts, but they're not wiling to sit in court for weeks figuring it out.

Yeah, poker makes up a small part of their income. They make most of their money from slots and sports betting which will continue business as usual outside of curtailments in advertising which arguably don't go far enough. Flutter already has a €10 max bet on slots because they recognize the relative harm of slots based on actual data.

I do believe there was very little thought put in to the max bets/max winnings section. One of the arguments I make is that if you calculate the expected loss rate for online slots per hour and compare it to online poker for a recreational player given the €10 max bet, you have €180 for online slots and €2.25 for online poker respectively. It doesn't make any sense but I think the legislators are reluctant to be seen as watering down the regulation in any way even if it means more harmful consequences in the long run.

I don't want to be too critical of those behind the legislation because there is a significant problem with gambling in this country and they are trying to do the right thing but I am convinced that this aspect of the bill makes it worse for everyone.

Just come across this thread. I'm English but my partner is Irish and we are planning to move to Ireland in two years time so this is slightly alarming reading for a pro online player.
I'm just wondering when we will likely have an outcome on this and what % chance at this point online poker will no longer be a viable option full-time given what we know at present?

Thanks for those putting in the work here @Jimbo et al.

I'd say within the next few weeks. There may be a General Election coming up before year end and it is possible that it doesn't get through in time. The more people who write in, the harder it is for them to ignore so I would encourage anyone who wants to continue playing poker in some capacity or another to voice your concerns to the TD's/Senators listed. I can't give you a number. I'm more optimistic than I was but I'd say it's definitely less than 50% that we get this aspect amended.

We might know as early as next week. It's going through the Committee stage of the Seanad next Wednesday.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/detailed-schedule/?tab=seanad

oireachtas

Detailed schedule

Sorry, is this just online or does it affect brick and mortar casinos?

Both. If anyone is writing in you might as well focus on the Senators as they are the ones doing the voting. I know it is tedious ccing them all but it is worth a shot. You can use any one of the templates the lads above made or whatever you want.

Even though the UK is one of the most regulated gambling markets in the world, residents are still using offshore gambling products.

"

https://igamingbusiness.com/legal-compliance/regulation/bgc-illegal-gambling-black-market/

iGB

BGC survey predicts £2.7bn bet annually on UK black market

by jaamit k

Even though the UK is one of the most regulated gambling markets in the world, residents are still using offshore gambling products.

"

https://igamingbusiness.com/legal-compliance/regulation/bgc-illegal-gambling-black-market/

iGB

BGC survey predicts £2.7bn bet annually on UK black market

"

This is a direct result of the regulation. Players who don't want to share their details, or are otherwise banned from accessing the gambling market in the UK - they reflag themselves as not in the UK, and access gambling platforms as a foreign national via VPN.

Surprised it's 2.7bn though - that implies that this is pretty widespread.

Thanks for starting the thread and thanks to those who wrote the email templates. I just emailed the Minister of State James Browne and also some Senators.
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/members/mem...

The Minister of State seems to be in charge of passing the bill.
https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2024...
non paywalled link: https://archive.ph/ooQGb

The Oireachtas site is quite good for getting information about it and contact details for Senators etc. You can read the debate about it from earlier this year on the website and see who was involved in the discussion etc (and click on their name to get their contact details).
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/deb...

There seems to be an exemption being made for bingo in relation to the maximum bet allowed, so hopefully other games like poker get exemptions too.

In my email I emphasised how not all games that have elements of gambling are all alike and how there should be a distinction made between casino games and other social gambling games like poker, bridge, backgammon, bingo etc and especially a distinction made between poker casino slot games against the house and poker played with other people for competition.

I have sent mine just now, wasn't getting anywhere with my local reps. Thanks ktlrkn for the link to the representative and thanks indeed to everyone in this thread for your help.

In addition to emphasising that poker is a game of skill and should not be treated like slots or casino games I mentioned the social impact the game has on me. It isn't an exaggeration as I can no longer play physical sports and have no interest in computer games or reading and TV bores the bollox off me at this point. Sounds kinda pathetic but there we are.