[LOW] 2/5 Line check, folding KK in 772 flop 4bet pot?

You're posting this, so I take it the result was not good for you. But it seems like a standard stack off.
As you noted you have an SPR of 1 and a dry rag paired board, with one of your opponents a loose action player.
I might be a little worried about reg having AA but even then, you are ~170bb deep with KK and a fold would be difficult to find.

Agreed, with a fish who bluffs a lot this is standard, get the money in.

Reg can have worse, though the minraise with the fish behind is concerning, but he also did not get it in preflop. I would need more info to fold

I would size up with our 4B pre, to at least $250.

The problem with your raise size is that V in the BB is getting a good price to over-call when closing the action, so he could conceivably show up with some 7x or 22 on the flop. Based on the earlier hand history, it seems like he doesn't like to fold to pre-flop raises, and will continue very wide.

Your super-small c-bet size and BTN's min-click don't scream extreme strength, so it's possible BB is spazzing with 88-QQ. But a check raise jam into a bet and a raise from the two pre-flop aggressors looks pretty nutted, especially if we've seen him shy away from over-playing thin value.

Don't know what to make of the BTN's min-click. Maybe he's nutted and trying to juice the pot up because you bet so small. Maybe he's just trying to see where he's at, or fold out BB and get this heads up and IP on you.

I dunno. I understand we're supposed to stack off with over-pairs at this SPR, but I'm not excited to get it in here.

Jam over his raise otf. This looks like JJ/QQ a lot more than AA (and not 7x).

It's probably a gii situation, but I don't like it at all. This guy called with trip 2s but he's jamming here? I'm also concerned about Reg slow-playing AA, but you are four handed and he could be min-raising your tiny flop bet w/ worse.

Also, I go bigger pre.

Results:

Villain had 75s and won,

Regular folded AKs w BDFD, regular said he had a live read on fish and thought he had a 7, which was irrelevant since he had AK.. other regular said he would have folded..

Something that occurs to me as I'm looking at this, and seeing the results...

When someone flops trips like this, there's a population tendency to slow-play, and we sort of expect bad rec-fish to just flat call the flop c-bet, because they're scared of folding out all of our over-pairs and bluffs.

Bart Hanson has dubbed this the "negative-equity slow-play", because of the likelihood that over-pairs can fill up on almost any turn or river card, making it harder for flopped trips to realize their equity from OOP.

We might think that V would likely slow-play and just flat call when facing a single bet of 1/3 pot or more. We might also think that V might go for the flat call or check-raise if there's only a single bet that's really small.

But when there's a really small c-bet, and then a raise, even if the raise is just a min-click, I would think it increases the likelihood that trips and bottom boat get raised off more, and decreases the likelihood that V is spazzing with some PP that didn't 4B pre.

I'm not saying it's impossible that V could show up with 88-QQ. He could, but I'd think it would be at some very low frequency. Combined with our reads that V is pretty loose pre, and pretty passive with thin value post, I think this is a spot where we can make an exploitable fold.

If we think the BTN ever shows up with AA, or any 7x, then it becomes a fairly trivial fold.

I don't like 1/8 pot on flop. Bad luck fish had 75s.

i think while flop size might be justifiable in theory, its probably a mistake given ranges involved / the board and you playing vs aggro fish and 5/5 reg. i guess not since reg bluffed vs it but would in general expect both to be pair heavy and mostly inelastic vs sizing to one bet. i also think people generally bet 1/3 pot here too often even if spr doesn't warrant it so it wont look weird if you choose that sizing.

i mean i cannot imagine a world where the reg raises a better hand otf with fish behind him lol. re your thoughts of what to do, if you want to stack off vs the reg if the fish folds, i would click it back or make a small raise instead of jamming. i dont rly see what jamming does for you that small raise doesn't do the same while letting him either float or jam over with whatever he has.

bonkers action to face but again i dont think its that dangerous, i rly dont expect reg to have u beat, only thing is maybe fish less likely to spew here given 2 ppl have put in money. id stack off and be close to indifferent / mildly excited about it. i guess conceivably u could fold this and call aa if u wanted to but id not be folding. would not really care what the other regs have to say post hand tbh. there are people you are dead vs otf but it doesn't sound like this is one of them

LOL @ Results. Whatever you do in these circumstances, compliment Fish profusely, about what a brilliant deceptive play it was. They're never smart enough to realize what you're doing.

As for play. Bigger Pre: 250

And for River, when it's a PSB, I think I'm just shoving first time. As played, easy call.

BTW if we do think a 7 could have been in his range, and he's calling off 190 pre with it, did we think about a jam pre? Regardless I'm looking to mercilessly isolate this guy pre in general.

Why should I raise to 250 preflop? If I did so I would have to call a AK/JJ+ range with TT, so I would not have a bluff range, this sizing means I could be bluffing w AQs against reg and for value against fish.

I really don't like these type of comments where you just say "raise bigger pre" without looking at stack size etc..

I sometimes think "docvail" is trolling with some of the things he says..

Apparently my bet sizing worked vs regular, he threw 140 on fire with AK, I would have shipped vs him.. most hands have 2/3 outs vs KK here.. if I had AA I would flat regs minraise and he would burn even more money, I don't think I could fold vs fish without a live read..

Uhm...what?

I was sincerely trying to help, but if that looks like trolling to you, I'll stop. But in the interest of still trying to help, as well as defending my reputation, I'll answer your question, and explain my advice.

Why raise to $250 pre-flop?

We opened to $15, and the BTN 3B us to $50. If we're going to 4B in a LLSNL game, my standard formula is going to be 3x the raise size of $50 when IP, or 4x when OOP, plus 1x for each caller or other player in the hand.

If we're really deep, or really shallow, I might go 2.5x. I'm not too concerned that theory says we should size down with our 4B sizing, because so few players at LLSNL have a 3B-fold range, especially not when the 4B size pot-commits them.

So when the BTN makes it $50 and the BB calls, I'm raising 5x, to $250, at least. I might raise larger if I think the BTN is likely to over-fold and the BB is likely to over-call. The goal is to get the BTN to fold and the BB to call, so we can play heads up and in position post-flop.

Looking at the stack sizes, I don't see a reason to alter that formula. We're starting $860 effective. If we raise to $250, and one or both call, we'll be going to the flop with $500-$750 in the pot, and $600 behind, effectively 1 SPR, give or take, low enough that we can jam most flops. If one or both jam pre, awesome, let's play for stacks when we have KK.

Like I said, the problem with your raise size is that when action gets back to the BTN, the BB has already called his $50, so there's a little over $290 in the pot, and he only has to call off another $140 to see the flop. So he's getting a pretty good price to continue. Once he calls, the pot is $430, and the BB also only has to call off another $140, so he's getting a REALLY good price to come along.

As far as the ranges go, I'd take the same size with any hand that I'd be 4B'ing here. But in LLSNL, my 4B range is going to be pretty strong generally. I don't know that I'd be 4B'ing TT or AQs all that often, unless we're short-stacked, so I'm not worried about 4B'ing TT or AQs and being up against AK/JJ+, because I'd be flatting, not raising, which I think is fine, because we'll have a higher SPR on the flop, holding a hand that needs a little more room to maneuver.

As for the rest of what I said - I don't know what a 12% pot c-bet is meant to accomplish, other than induce a raise. I'd mostly be checking the flop, to induce BTN to stab, or with plans to make a delayed c-bet on the turn if the flop checks through. If we're going to c-bet a flop like this, that doesn't hit our 4B range, I'd think we'd want to go much bigger, because we'd be c-betting so infrequently.

I still don't know what to make of the BTN's min-click, other than sticking with my original assessment that it doesn't scream extreme strength. But the BB's check-raise-jam does scream strength, especially if he was hesitant to fast-play thin value in that earlier hand history.

I don't think the BTN was torching money calling your pre-flop 4B with AK. He was getting a good price to call in position and with a strong hand, and keep the fish in the BB involved.

And you actually did have a live read on the fish, developed from the previous hand history you gave, in that he raised with 32o, managed to get to the river with bottom pair that ran into trips, and yet still didn't bet his hand for value. In short, he's terrible, and you shouldn't be eager to pay him off here.

That sort of read would lead me to believe he's pretty nutted when he jams here, facing a pre-flop raise, a 3B, a 4B, a c-bet (albeit, an absurdly small one), and a raise (also crazy small), on this low paired board that isn't likely to hit your range or the BTN's.

He gave you an out by jamming, letting you off the hook by telegraphing the strength of his hand. Like I said, even if you think he MIGHT be spazzing with 88-QQ, if there's even a remote chance that BTN might have AA or 7x, it's a trivial fold.

Still hoping all that is helpful. If not, okay. I give up, and will direct help towards others.

That's true with your average rec, but some fish are so dumb that they honestly think they're brilliant, and also if it's America peeps don't get sarcasm here anyway.

I would play it cooler. Being effusive in praise is sort of like making a speech about going home when you go allin with the nuts. If you act real differently towards him than the regs, he may pick up on it.

Responding to Docvail,

Regarding your 4bet sizing comment,

you say if they jam pre its nice since we have KK, my issue is I think 4bet and folding (to regular jam) TT-JJ/AQs is better than calling, which you disagree with, so you tighten your 4bet range with an OOP fish that is basically dead money, for me this makes no sense, and I can't 4bet fold TT-JJ/AQs to 250 (I would have pot odds to call a jam).

"I don't think the BTN was torching money calling your pre-flop 4B with AK. He was getting a good price to call in position and with a strong hand, and keep the fish in the BB involved.", very hard to torch money with AK pre, I think his call is fine if he thinks fish will come along.

Regarding my cbet, I think betting small is the correct play, but I could have made it a bit bigger, say 15-20%.

I say you are trolling because of other posts I made and the way you write, I think you are biased to the results and try to create controversy, even if there is no results its hard not to throw hints of what happened when writing a post, so we have to be extra careful not be biased.

Sorry I write well and try to be helpful. I'll knock it off.

I would stack of with KK on the flop I've just seen enough crazy stuff in these spots when we either check or bet small. Villains can both have pocket pairs. I probably go quarter pot on flop but honestly your flop size doesn't matter a lot. You bet small hoping to get called or raised and then you get it in. But whether you go 10%, 15%, 20%, 25%, I don't think it matters a lot.

4bet size is fine. I would bet a size where you could plausibly fold to a 5bet. Not that you ever would here, but you could if you have some light 4bet and possibly even AKo or JJ, maybe QQ depending on reads. Alternatively I think you can just jam, which you might also do some with AKo. I definitely make this play in certain positions with KK and AKo closer to 100bb. But since we are closer to 200bb we may not want to have a 4bet jam range.

My general rule for 4bet sizings is OOP we want to go 2.5-2.8x around 100bb, at 150bb 3 to 3.5x, and 200+bb we can go more like 4-4.5x. In position smaller like 2.2x at 100 bb, 2.5-3x at 200+bb.

Also sometimes stuff gets weird because someone raised large either because they iso over a limp or they just chose a larger sizing like 4x+. I think we generally don't want to go smaller than 2x IP and we generally don't want to go smaller than 2.2x OOP, maybe a bit larger. We also should rarely bet more than 1/3 of our stack/the size that makes the SPR less than 1 when called.
When we are 200bb+ deep, we may want to go a size where villain can 5bet us to 2x and the SPR is still going to be >1, as long as we don't give them too good of a price. We should also consider adding some extra money to our bet when there is extra money from callers in the pot. I think we have to recognize that sometimes even when we are 200bb deep, we are going to want to 4bet to a size where the only 5bet size should be jam.

Even with the cold caller, I think going 5x is really excessive when we aren't even 200bb deep. You want to rep a size big enough to represent a polar range where it is big enough to get folds, but not so big that you give yourself a bad price on bluffs. And also may want it to be plausible that you are leaving enough behind that you might fold a hand like JJ or AKo to a jam depending on the configuration and reads. First of all, that gives you the option to actually 4bet fold bluffs and hands where it is close like AKo and JJ. Second of all, that at least tells a story that maybe you don't have AA or KK exclusively. Maybe that induces villain to jam with AK or QQ when you have AA and KK. Maybe that keeps villain from making a tight fold with JJ or TT.

Whatever our exact strategy, we should spend a lot of time away from the table figuring out our 4bet sizes and ranges for different SPRs.

I presume the button folded - did you ever find out what they had? Button having AA was somewhat of a danger (although preflop suggests against it) but if you called and button folded QQ that's still a decent result - you're expecting to be ahead of the wild player a lot here, both overpairs and air. Plenty of overpairs as cold called a 3bet and then called the 4bet.