LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
Many guys were better than 88-90' Pippen, not just Hughes.. Lebron received 4 guys that were better than 1990 Pippen, such as Hughes, Jamison, Mo, or Zydrunas, as the stats show above.
But the issue is that the bron-ball skillset imposes spot-up roles and cannot develop anyone, so he couldn't develop and win with 4 guys that were better than 1990 Pippen.
Heck, Robert Horry was a 2-time champion and easily better during his first 3 seasons than 88-90' Pippen.. Accordingly, considering how close MJ
Answer the questions. Was Hughes a better player than Pippen?
I think that if you only rank in the Top 2 for 2 out of 19 seasons it does impact GOAT status. If MJ has only 2 top 2 finishes he's not the GOAT.
That second option saved Kobe in the first round one of those years and was just as good as him in the Finals that year.
Shaq got beat by a goat team (the 96 bulls I suppose ?) .
Well he got swept not just beaten .
And he got swept too by Houston the year previously vs 2 hof
And again he got swept the year before vs 1 hof in Reggie .
So I don’t know why u think being swept vs the bulls in 96 makes it better when he got swept by much weaker team Previously shrug
Not just beaten -> swept !
Ps: the difference is mj didn’t had even an all stars in his team .
In 1995 , anfernee was already nba1 …
I'm not even going to talk Kobe v LeBron anymore as the argument is not even an argument. If you want to talk about whether he's better than Steph, Durant, West etc at least that's a real discussion.
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Jordan received an 8 ppg rookie and Lebron received this:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hughela01.html.................. 21.6 PER... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP... 4.3 BPM... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-DBasketball-Reference.comLarry Hughes Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.comhttps://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/6/5.... No All-DBasketball-Reference.comScottie Pippen Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com
plus a 2x all-star in Zydrunas and Jamison, and also an all-star spacer in Mo or HOF coach in Brown - MJ would 5-peat with all this
For the first 24 years of their lives, Hughes was a significantly better basketball player than Pippen on both sides of the ball, but then he joined Lebron and his development promptly ended, while Pippen's development continued past 24 years old because his 1st option had a skillset that allowed a coddling system upon which Pippen's low peak capability relied.
History shows that Jordan received an 8 ppg rookie, while Lebron received 2x all-stars in Zydrunas or Jamison, and also all-star spacers like Mo or acquisitions that destroy 1990 Pippen (Hughes).. So again, Lebron received 4 guys that were far better than what Jordan received in young Pippen, and yet Jordan's skillset allowed Pippen to develop, while Lebron's version of Luka-ball reduced everyone and underachieved with casts that Jordan would've 3-peated with.
FP, only Lebron has massive debacles through 4 or 6 games and therefore required 7th games, such as 23 on 32% thru 6 games in the 08' ECSF, or 23 on 43% thru 6 games in the 13' Finals, or 24 and 6 TO thru 4 games in the 16' Finals.. Or 22 on 35% thru 4 games on the 07' Finals.. There's probably a lot more too - I think the 14' ECF went 6 games and Lebron only needed 22.8 ppg, so he could've presumably averaged 33 like MJ did to sweep trash teams like that.
None of the players Bron played with are close to as good as 91 Pippen, until he played with Wade.
You give Jordan credit for Pippen taking a massive jump up and only then did he win rings.
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Jordan received an 8 ppg rookie and Lebron received this:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hughela01.html.................. 21.6 PER... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP... 4.3 BPM... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-DBasketball-Reference.comLarry Hughes Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.comhttps://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/6/5.... No All-DBasketball-Reference.comScottie Pippen Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com
plus a 2x all-star in Zydrunas and Jamison, and also an all-star spacer in Mo or HOF coach in Brown - MJ would 5-peat with all this
For the first 24 years of their lives, Hughes was a significantly better basketball player than Pippen on both sides of the bal
Giannis was a 7ppg rookie. I'm probably going to take him over Hughes and it's not because of development.
Giannis was a 7ppg rookie. I'm probably going to take him over Hughes and it's not because of development.
If Giannis was drafted in 1988 at 22 years old like Pippen was, he would immediately start a 3-peat with MJ, since 22-year Giannis was already much better than peak Pippen and had whispers of a potential GOAT candidacy down the road.... Otoh, 22-year Pippen was a bum and he cost Jordan rings until he was an ancient 25.. Pippen developed later than even the raw Giannis, and then never got anywhere near the caliber of Giannis ultimately.
Essentially, comparing Pippen to Giannis is like comparing Chandler Parsons to Jokic.. The talent gap is obviously enormous and I thank you for illuminating this.
But even if Giannis was drafted alongside Jordan at 19 years old, then his 3-years of development would cost Jordan 3 chips just like Pippen did, and therefore pretty much anyone would be preferred over him, such as the aforementioned born-champion (Horry), and certainly guys that were much better than 3rd year Pippen across the board, as the stats show in previous posts (Hughes, Jamison, Zydrunas, Mo).
Most importantly - you're making the argument yourself by pointing out that guys like pippen and giannis DEVELOPED - see that's the whole thing we're talking about - Jordan's superior scoring diversity and lower reliance on ball-dominance developed many guys while Lebron's high-scoring ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles that never developed anyone.
Ultimately, Jordan's jumpshooting skill and off-ball game puts the ball in Pippen and Giannis' hands, so they can develop - Jordan subsequently closes any possession they can't, which in Pippen's case, was the goat possession/usage load...Otoh, Lebron's high scoring, ball-dominant skillset imposes spot-up roles, bad brand and bad chemistry that therefore needs more talent/help on a perpetual basis, regardless of cast.
itt we learn that the goat won 6 chips with a sidekick that never progressed past 21-year old Giannis.
We also learn that due to the 3 year development needs of Giannis and Pippen (which cost MJ 3 chips), almost anyone would be preferred in their place during the 3 year development period, such as guys that were confirmed BETTER than 3rd-year Pippen, such as Hughes, Mo, Zydrunas or Jamison.. Or Horry
Obviously confirmed.
What season do you think Giannis will overtake Kobe? I mean, if you don't think he's there already.
Notably Kobe does not crack this top 10.
Poor Kobe. Video is 3 years old too, so is missing Joker and GA. Meaning Kobe is at best 13th.
What if there was no such thing as sports media and the games were simply broadcasted without commentary or review?
What would you guys do?.. How would you know who the best players are? The only reason you have Lebron #2 is because the media has literally told you so - the evidence of the media whipping you into shape is the #2 ranking of Lebron directly coincides with the media's creation of a goat debate... Before that, no one ranked Lebron at #2 and he wasn't even above Kobe, Kareem or Magic.. Lebron being #2 only became a thing after the goat debate was started in 2017 - the originator of the debate was such a fraud that he incorrectly predicted his fake goat would win the 17' Finals (
), and then began the fake debate on ESPN ()...
(notice the drum-roll by Chris Carter, so everyone is "in" on Nick Wright's "bombshell" that Lebron is already the goat.. so it's a confirmed fake, manufactured debate that fooled many in the public).
However, even without debating the actual basketball and accolades, Lebron lacks so many goat qualities, such as winning mentality, competitiveness, perseverance, and coachability.. There's also the basketball flaws, such as FT's, turnovers, and also the lack of elite "bag", expert jumpshooting skill or ability to play off teammates, and of course winning or even competitive record on the championship level (22-33).... Also, candidates for the greatest ever must be candidates for best scorer ever, which Lebron is not.
Also, candidates for the greatest ever must be candidates for best scorer ever, which Lebron is not.
1.) Why?
2.) This negates your Kobe takes, as Kobe is not a candidate for the best scorer ever. He's up there for 2-point jumpshooters, but Jordan, Curry, and some centers are in a tier above Kobe as scorers.
1.) Why?
2.) This negates your Kobe takes, as Kobe is not a candidate for the best scorer ever. He's up there for 2-point jumpshooters, but Jordan, Curry, and some centers are in a tier above Kobe as scorers.
1) because basketball at it's core is about putting the ball in the hole - the goat must be the best at it, or arguably
2) Kobe has goat scoring diversity and many would argue a goat bag.. goat tough shot maker, etc, etc.. people say all kinds of things about Kobe that are arguments for best scorer ever
What if there was no such thing as sports media and the games were simply broadcasted without commentary or review?
What would you guys do?.. How would you know who the best players are? The only reason you have Lebron #2 is because the media has literally told you so - the evidence of the media whipping you into shape is the #2 ranking of Lebron directly coincides with the media's creation of a goat debate... Before that, no one ranked Lebron at #2 and he wasn't even above Kobe, Kareem or Magic
Okay, let's ignore what everyone says. let's analyse their games. You love posting stats of Hughes v Pippen etc. Show us any stat that has Kobe>LeBron.
Okay, let's ignore what everyone says. let's analyse their games. You love posting stats of Hughes v Pippen etc. Show us any stat that has Kobe>LeBron.
There are a few. Namely turnovers, FT%, and -- to fallguy's favorite stat -- long 2-point FG%.
The fact is, just as a scorer, Kobe and Melo are closer than Kobe and Curry, let alone Kobe and Jordan.
1) because basketball at it's core is about putting the ball in the hole - the goat must be the best at it, or arguably
2) Kobe has goat scoring diversity and many would argue a goat bag.. goat tough shot maker, etc, etc.. people say all kinds of things about Kobe that are arguments for best scorer ever
This is such horseshit. Given Kobe was a bad 3-point shooter, how is he a better scorer than Curry, Kareem, Wilt, or Shaq?
Per 100 possessions:
Kobe
35.8 PTS on 27.9 FGA
Curry
35.2 on 25.5
Kareem
29.9 on 22
Shaq
35.2 on 24
Kobe missed a ton of shots. If we're having a GOAT conversation and just talking scoring, he has to get dinged for this without 3-point range because there are others who keep Kobe out of the conversation. He made up for some of it with great FT shooting in a vacuum, but not enough with 3-pointers to compare to better scorers.
Kobe scoring a ton of points is different from him being a top-2 scorer of all-time. If we're just talking volume, LeBron and Kareem take him out. If we're talking about scoring from anywhere, Curry takes him out. Once we bring efficiency in (percentages, points per shot), Kobe isn't even in the conversation anymore.
Yeah, Kobe isn't in the convo for greatest scorer. But Harden is.
Good convo whether Harden is a better offensive player than Kobe. A real discussion.
Good convo whether Harden is a better offensive player than Kobe. A real discussion.
I’m not a fan of how he does it (free throw merchant), but like, given the rule set of the NBA and how refs call games I suppose you can’t deny it’s a legitimate way to get points. Given that it’s definitely Harden right?
Kobe had a more aesthetically pleasing way of getting points and some might say more skilled but Harden objectively got them more efficiently.
