LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

Jordan's carry-jobs in the 89' and 90' Playoffs are far greater than anything Lebron ever did, since the 6th-seeded Bulls were a rookie cast in 89' that took the Pistons to 6 games, while Lebron's high seeds were decorated veterans that got swept by the 07' Spurs or 18' Warriors.. Lebron's 07' run was invalidated when the Spurs revealed that it was achieved by a 22 on 35% sweepee with 6 turnovers per game, while the 17' and 18' Finals revealed what a joke the East was..

It's amazing that the 00's East was the only conference in history that was won by numerous 1-star teams like Iverson, Kidd, and Dwight, yet this is the conference that Lebron diluted by putting the top 3 players in the conference on 1 team ("the decision").. By 2018, the conference had been decimated and Lebron was facing teams led by Al Horford and Victor Oladipo instead of Wade, Kyrie and Bosh.. Jordan routinely averaged 40-45 against teams much better than the Horford Celtics, such as Ewing's Knicks in 89' or Barkley's Sixers in 90'.. Or the #1 SRS Cavs in 89.

Ultimately, Kyrie played 12 of 14 games in the 15' East Playoffs, while Love was the only all-star sidekick in the 18' East, so the only time that Lebron took a 1-star team to the Finals was when everyone was doing it (Iverson, Dwight, Kidd twice)..

Finally, Love averaged 20 ppg on good efficiency against the only top 5 SRS teams that Lebron faced in the 18' Playoffs (Raps, Warriors), so Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring and efficiency from a sidekick... In addition to never carrying weak help over top teams, he never defeated max defensive attention either (never carried scoring load on championship level).. Lebron cannot carry the load vs top teams because he lacks sufficient brand at carry-job volume (too ball-dominant), thereby requiring all-time scoring help - this includes "franchise players" at 2nd and 3rd option.. (aka guys that were asked to build something from scratch and were All-NBA before the winning spotlight of titles).

And yet Kyrie played 2 games, while JR Smith averaged 18 on 66% TS, so Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring and efficiency from a sidekick.

In addition to never carrying weak help over top teams, he never defeated max defensive attention either (never carried scoring load on championship level)..

Lebron cannot carry the load vs top teams because he lacks sufficient brand at carry-job volume (too ball-dominant), thereby requiring all-time scoring help - this includes "franchise players" at 2nd and 3rd option.. (aka guys that were asked to build something from scratch and were All-NBA before the winning spotlight of titles).

Ultimately, Kyrie played 12 of 14 games in the 15' East Playoffs, while Love was the only all-star sidekick in the 18' East, so the only time that Lebron took a 1-star team to the Finals was when everyone was doing it (Iverson, Dwight, Kidd twice)..

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Clear-cut differences between MJ and Lebron:

* MJ could carry weak help over top teams and Lebron can't, aka MJ beat many top 5 SRS or Finals teams with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick, while Lebron never has.

* Lebron had better casts based on 3 objective metrics: 1) sidekicks that made the Finals without him (Kyrie, Wade)... 2) sidekicks that made All-NBA before joining him, aka before being boosted by the winning spotlight of titles (AD, Wade, Love, Bosh)... 3) sidekicks that destroyed goat-level players like Jokic, Curry, Dirk or young MJ (AD, Kyrie, Wade)

* MJ is the only player in history that built a lottery franchise from scratch to champion as the clear-cut best player from Day 1 - he's the only guy that elevated low-producing rookies to meaningful producers and built a horrific franchise into a household name.. Otoh, Lebron was handed ready-made stars and all-stars from his first years in the league when he missed the playoffs with the East all-star center on his team in 05', lost as a -700 favorite with another all-star in 09', and then mostly lost with super-teams and preseason favorites thereafter.

* Lebron played at the lowest level possible of 35% shooting and 6 TO's per game in two different series (07' Finals, 08' ECSF)

* For Lebron to win as 1st option, he needed 2 franchise players as teammates that included a sidekick that made the Finals without him - both of these things (2 star teammates and a sidekick that made the Finals without him) are objectively more help than MJ needed to win as 1st option.

* MJ could defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load on championship level) - he could carry the scoring load because he could maintain sufficient brand of ball at carry-job volume to beat top teams - he could drop 40 while the ball moves and teammates assist him, while Lebron's 40 points is ball-domination that reduces teammates to spot-up roles and lacks sufficient brand to beat top teams.

* The common thread ever series loss for the last 10 years of Lebron's playoff career is deficits in team assists (usually massive deficits).. This is due to Lebron's high-scoring ball-dominance, which reduces teammates' assists (playmaking) and increases their assisted rate (play-finishing), aka turns them into spot-up shooter... Lower teammate assists yields low TEAM assists and a brand that competes at a lottery level in the championship (22-33 record in the Finals).

* Jordan has superior stats than Lebron in PPG, OREB, FT%, turnovers, SPG, BPG, possessions used (usage), efficiency on those possessions (ortg), PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP, plus/minus, clutch-time stats, game-winner efficiency.. Otoh, Lebron leads DREB (positional stat), TS (drive-heavy game), and APG (ball-dominance and lower team assists).

* Lebron is probably the all-time leader in turnovers, missed shots, missed FT's, and Finals losses
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Maybe there's a reason nobody was able to put up big offensive numbers while playing with Jordan, and maybe that reason had something to do with how Jordan played.

When JR Smith puts up 18 ppg on 66% TS, its because he was playing with Lebron, and had he been playing with Jordan instead, he never puts up those numbers.

Fair point !
Is it true ?

Pippen top 6 season
22pts ch without MJ
21.4 Ch without MJ
~~~~~~
21. Ch with mj
20.2. Ch with mj
19.4. Ch with mj
19.1. Ch with mj

Well that doesn’t change much beside 1 basket more …

Grant top 6 season
12.5 ch without MJ
11.3. Orlando
10.8 ch with mj
10.7 ch with MJ
10.7. Orlando
10.4. Orlando

Again didn’t change much

Steve Kerr top 5 season
8.6 ch without MJ
8.4 ch with MJ
8.2 ch without MJ
8.1 ch with MJ
7.5 ch with MJ

Again not much of anything

Bj Armstrong top 4 season
14.8 ch without MJ
14 ch without MJ
12.3 ch with MJ
12.3 GSW

Yes big change 1 basket more or the same

Luc longley top 3 season
All Chicago with MJ ….

Well I guess playing with MJ was fine .
Again people seem under appreciate MJ having
“only tiny” 5.3 assist on average
to LeBron “huge” 7.4 assist …

Now do Ron Harper, Kukoc, Rodman & Cartwright

Harper 94-95 no jordan 6.9 ppg
95-96 with Jordan 7.4 ppg

Cartwright 87-88 no Jordan 11.1 ppg
88-89 with Jordan 12.4 ppg

Rodman
94-95 no Jordan 7.1 ppg
95-96 with Jordan 5.5 ppg
97-98 with Jordan 4.7 ppg
98-99 no Jordan 2.1 ppg

Now if Harper, Cartwright, and Dennis Rodman had higher efficiencies than Michael Jordan, you could probably argue they should have shot a lot more. Someone else can look that up, but at a glance, it seems like having the greatest scorer of all time on your team leading to 6 titles in 8 years was a good thing.

cherry picking some seasons there.

MC was saying that there was no correlation between players best offensive seasons and playing with MJ, then leaves out 4 players that clearly scored more points in seasons they didn't play with MJ.

Pippen played exactly 1 prime non Jordan season and he finished 3rd in MVP voting.

And in this thread someone acts like Larry Hughes (never received a vote) and Antawn Jamison (1 season finished 14th, no other votes) are on his level, just to.fit their silly hate driven narrative. Ilgauskas never received a vote.

Pippen also finished 7th in the year Jordan only played 17 games, and had also a 5th, 9h, 10th, and 11th place finish.

So Pippen had 6 MVP finishes in the top 11, more than Anthony Davis, whose best finishes are 3rd, 5th, 6th, and 9th (no other voting appearances). Only one of those years was with Lebron, and they won the title.

Dennis Rodman had finishes of 10th, 11th, 12th, and 15th. The 15th was with Chicago.

Chris Bosh had a 7th place finish, and a 12th place finish, both with Toronto. No other votes.

Kevin Love had a 6th and 11th, both with Minnesota. No other votes.

Kyrie Irving has never even placed in the MVP voting.

Pippens career MVP votes is about even with Wade, who had years of 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 10th, 10th, and 12th.

And of course in the 8 years that Kobe played with Shaq, he was playing with a Shaq who finished 1st, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 6th, and 9th in MVP voting.

Shaq had pretty good help by having Kobe though, who had 5 finishes in the top 12 during those years.

Huh no ?
U trolling , Harper didn’t play with mj in 95 (except last 17 games) and kept the same trend until he retired ?
He had an injury and his role changed .
Nothing to do with mj .
And Harper best year was a SG , u don’t want mj has a SG ?

Kukoc .
Come on , the only reason he got higher stats without mj is he became starter twice in his career and he barely did better …

Rodman ? lol ….really ?

Cartwright.
The guy was just declining you see it in his last season in NY .
With mj he had more game time and took more shot but his efg% just drop massively and u want to give him the ball in nh prime the goat ?
For example compare season 89 and 90 with 81 and 82 .
Maybe his injured had something to do with it , who knows to explain such a significant fg% ?
And during Cartwright time , it’s the period where mj passes the most …

Got other names ?

Ps: lets say u got 1 name just 1 , does that negate all the 99% of all other players that it didn’t changes anything ?
Stop it ….

Your post was comparing MJ's teammates best scoring seasons with and without MJ. You then purposely missed players that didn't fit your narrative.

Now do BJ Armstrong.

I'm sure there are a lot others, but I've listed several key members of the Bulls Championship team that averaged well below career highs in scoring while playing with MJ. It's part of playing with someone putting up 30ppg in an era that scoring 100 in a game was an achievement.

There's too many uncontrollable factors involved there. I'm not even trying to knock Jordan, I voted for him in this thread.

The 2 players have obviously different styles of play. In 2011 Wade got just as many FGA per game as Lebron. In recent years Davis gets just as many FGA as Lebron. Jordan never allowed a teammate such opportunities. Lebron has always taken a significantly lower percentage of his teams FGA than Jordan did. Both styles worked just fine. But as a number 2/3/4/5 option your opportunities offensively playing with Lebron are obviously better. This isn't even an argument for Lebron being a better player, it's just a point that their offensive style was different.

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Based on the historical record of Lebron's imposition of spot-up roles compared to the great ball movement allowed by Jordan's expert jumpshooting skill:

* Lebron can't have a winning record on the championship level. Jordan can

* Lebron can't make teammates better. Jordan can

* Lebron can't develop good teammates. Jordan can

* Lebron can't have great ball movement and high assist teams. Jordan can

* Lebron can't have #1 offenses. Jordan can (with no scoring help)

* Lebron can't have "unbeatable" teams that mostly win for stretches, such as Curry winning 3 in 4 years or Duncan winning 3 in 5

* Lebron can't carry weak help over top teams (can't beat top 5 SRS or Finals teams with weak scoring & efficiency from sidekick).. Jordan routinely carried weak help over top teams.

Lebron can't defeat max defensive attention (can't carry scoring load on the championship level. Jordan did it 6 times as much as anyone else.

* Lebron's skillset of high-scoring ball-domination decreases his teammates' assists and increases their assisted rate (turns them into spot-up shooter), while Jordan's expert jumpshooting skill could dominate while playing off teammates, thereby allowing great ball movement and brand of ball that wins the attrition battle.

All I did was take adjacent seasons where the players you mentioned played with/without Jordan. It’s probably not the best idea to extrapolate beyond that because a hundred other things can affect scoring average (aging for one. Completely different team dynamics another.)

Is there any data suggesting Jordan’s teammates’ scoring average goes down when playing with him while LeBron’s goes up? It should a little bit just because Jordan averaged more ppg, but like, that’s a good thing as long as he had good efficiency (he did). Still be interesting to see the data tho bc typically playing with an ultra elite scorer makes things easier for those around him. Less defensive pressure.

If you post less than 5000 words in a day, I'm disappointed. I like the satisfaction of scrolling right past it.

Except the stuff where you prop Kobe up to #2 all time. That stuff is worth reading.for the lols.

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1992 Pippen..... 21.0 and 7.0 apg... 55.5 ts
1994 Pippen..... 22.0 and 5.6 apg... 54.4 ts

1994 confirmed that Pippen's peak capability was 22 ppg, which was the same as the 19-21 ppg with greater assists and better efficiency that he averaged alongside MJ... In contrast to teammates playing to capacity alongside the expert jumpshooting skill of MJ, Kobe and Curry, dozens of Lebron or Luka's teammates were cratered by their high-scoring ball-domination and subsequent imposition of spot-up roles..

So the historical record shows that there was nothing wrong with Jordan's game because teammates grew by leaps and bounds alongside him (goat teammate development) and teammates played to capacity (goat chemistry).. The goat chemistry was due to Jordan's goat scoring diversity that fit with every teammate or system.

JR Smith averaged those exact stats except better true shooting alongside Melo in the 08' Playoffs against Kobe (2nd goat).

Secondly, Jordan developed pippen into an 18 ppg player, while Lebron was handed an 18 ppg player - JR Smith averaged 18/5/3 as 6MOY in New York before joining Lebron and had the aforementioned 18 on 69 ts alongside Melo..

Everyone knows that JR Smith is one of the most talented "what if's" in NBA history, aka what if his head was screwed on right.. Lebron was always gifted great talents but never developed players, which contrasts with Jordan's record of goat teammate development - all the best players that 80's Jordan played with grew astronomically, such as Pippen, BJ, Horace, Oakley and Woolridge, whereas no one grew into meaningful producers on Lebron's watch because his skillset of high-scoring ball-domination imposes spot-up roles (decreases his teammates' assists and increases their assisted rate).

Most of the best guys that Jordan played with played to capacity alongside him (near career highs), while most of the best players that Lebron played with cratered alongside him (Love, Bosh, Kuzma, Ingram, Wade, IT, Clarkson, Jamison, Hughes, Westbrook)... There's no comparison - Lebron has bad fits and Jordan doesn't.. And we know the reason for the bad fits - high-scoring point guard play (ball-domination) imposes spot-up roles and weaker chemistry, development, strategy and winning.

Armstrong was already in the list I posted first 0o
Maybe you didn’t read it much ?

Not cherry picking lol.
I used the main starter except Rodman which was irrelevant in the scoring topic shrug

No you didn’t !
Harper role changed when mj wasn’t there in 95 and he could never do better afterwards with or without mj . Many suggest injury based .
how the hell is mj fault ????

Again Cartwright last year before he joined the bulls was at 11ppg and just kept his descending trend on scoring already and he couldn’t do better even with more shot and playing time ?

Kukoc
Only reason he did better he was a starter those 2 years he did better but he never did better without mj with the same bench role .

Please find me 1 player ….where the changes would exceed like 1basket …

The only players that had better years before joining the bulls in scoring were already finish and couldn’t do better with or without mj .

That’s fine but why didn’t they have more attempt or more scoring without mj then ?

Furthermore people should stop thinking lebron gives the ball so much ….
Career FGA:
Lebron 19.6
Kobe 19.5
Duncan 14.6
Dirk 15.6
Steph 17.9
Luka 20.7
Shaq 16.1
Jokic 14.5 (amazing imo)
KD 18.7
Kareem 18.1
Bird 19.3
Wade 16.7

It’s like LeBron IS taking a lot of shot too …

If you remove the years where Kobe wasn't a superstar player (1st 3 years and last 3 years), his FGA per game from age 22-34 was 22.4

Jordan's career FGA was 22.9

So yes, Lebron shot 3 FGA per game less than those guys. That's significant and the rest of the guys you listed aren't particularly relevant. Curry is also a guy whose first 3 years should be removed. Remove the years where Shaq wasn't a superstar and his relevant FGA is actually 19.3. it's silly to include the seasons where players had significantly different roles. Lebron and Jordan were 1st options playing full time minutes in every year of their career, but most other guys weren't. Dirk and Duncan also go up by 2 FGA/G when removing the years when their usage and minutes were decreased. From age 22-33 Kareem averaged 20.8 and then his usage significantly decreased. And from age 22-28 he averaged 22.8 per game. From age 23-33 Wade averaged 18.1 and then his usage declined.

Vince Carter averaged 13.8 per game for his career, but as a star player from age 23-30 he averaged 20.2

Still lebron is not far from taking huge amount of shot AND he always got the ball in his hands …..

what was the point in all of this ?
let’s say in all mj career you find one or 2 players that instead having 10-11 ppg they would had 12-13 ppg .
Who the f cares ….you don’t count on them to put the balls in their hands to win championships.
They are great role players but mj got the max juice pretty much from all of them .
Not being able to exceed (with maybe one or 2 exception by 1 baskets) their performance without mj says it all for me .

Mj push them to be winners more then anything and mj still played in the triangle system .
Anyway shouldn’t the greatest scorer (or close to it) be one of the players having the most field goal attempt ?

if I pay a guy 40 millions a year and a guy 10 millions a year , which players I expect to have the ball in the 4th quarter ?

You know what maybe I should check what happens when players join lebron if they actually do have their best years playing with him ?

MJ's teammates played at or near career highs/capacity alongside him, while many of Lebron's teammates played far below capacity alongside him.

Kuzma and Ingram saw 1-year drops across the board in 2019 (PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48), while Jamison, Westbrook, IT, Love, Hughes, Bosh and many more were also cratered.

One guy allows the ball to move and great strategic capacity/coaching, while the other guy is uncoachable and has a coaching carousal - he imposes spot-up roles via his version of "luka-ball" and then acts surprised when this rudimentary brand can't viably compete on the championship level (22-33 and -86).

Always great when IT's 15 game sample size makes an appearance.

Wade/Davis/Russell all did just fine with Lebron. Kuzma and Ingram just saw decreased usage, similar to what they'd probably experience playing with Jordan. Westbrook and Jamison were washed up just like Harper or Cartwright was washed up with Jordan. Bosh and Love when from being number 1 options on weak teams to being number 3 options. Larry Hughes numbers with Lebron really don't stand out much from the type of player he always was. He had a couple of slightly better years, but he also had several worse years.

But please repeat yourself for another 5000 words. It was nice to look up these examples and see how empty all of them actually are.

Just admit your entire argument is fueled by an irrational hatred of Lebron and then move on with your life.

329 words:

The horrible fit of Wade and Lebron caused the goat choke in 2011, which caused the "not 6, not 7" expectation to become 2/4 including goat choke and record loss - it was the worst anyone can do... People don't understand that Lebron is an abnormal ball-dominator because he starts at forward, whereas a normal ball-dominator and great shooter like Nash would fit better with Wade/Bosh and win more with them.. Unfortunately, Nash didn't get to team up in his prime - only Lebron did and it yielded a record 6 straight preseason favorites until KD finally responded.

And there's no excuse for Ingram and Kuzma decreasing as young players BEFORE they hit their prime, when Pippen increased every year UNTIL he hit his prime - that's how young player development works, but Lebron imposes spot-up roles, so he never developed a single young player in 21 years - zero young players grew from low-producer to meaningful producer on his watch in 21 years.

So your opinions have become misguided by trying fit them into the Klutch Sports propaganda that you follow.

To fit with Lebron, you must be an elite shooter (Mo, Kyrie, Russell), or simply be BETTER than lebron - AD fit with Lebron because he was better at the time they teamed up - he lifted a lottery team to champion by leading the Lakers in scoring and turning the defense from worst to first - it's literally a GOAT season that AD gets no credit for...

To summarize all this - in spite of nitpicking here and there on a case-by-case basis, the fact remains that ONLY LEBRON has a long list of bad fits like Bosh, Wade, Love, Ingram, Kuzma, Westbrook, Hughes, IT, Clarkson, Jamison, and many more.. This is due to a skill deficit - high-scoring ball-dominators like Luka and Lebron impose spot-up roles, which prevents the elite chemistry and teammate development that expert jumpshooters allow (Curry, Kobe, MJ), who can play OFF teammates instead of dominating the ball excessively.