LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
Still going on about Westbrook, Jamison, and IT.
I guess Kobe ruined Howard and Nash. As well as Malone, Payton, and Mitch Richmond.
Always great when IT's 15 game sample size makes an appearance.
Wade/Davis/Russell all did just fine with Lebron. Kuzma and Ingram just saw decreased usage, similar to what they'd probably experience playing with Jordan. Westbrook and Jamison were washed up just like Harper or Cartwright was washed up with Jordan. Bosh and Love when from being number 1 options on weak teams to being number 3 options. Larry Hughes numbers with Lebron really don't stand out much from the type of player he a
Hughes played about 100 games with LeBron. I'm taking the over 100 on number of posts from FG with stats about Hughes.
And poor George Gervin.
I also forgot that Kobe ruined Glen Rice, who finished 6th and 11th in the 2 years prior to joining the Shaq/Kobe Lakers. My god was that team stacked. Shaq/Kobe/Rice was definitely a superteam. You could almost argue Kobe is one of the biggest underachievers of all time with the stacked teams he got. Well, that argument would be absolutely true if he was a #2 all time, but since he's more like 12th-15th his performance with stacked teams isn't such a sore thumb. Those Shaq/Kobe/Payton/Malone team and Howard/Kobe/Gasol/Nash teams were 2 of the most stacked teams going into the seasons that they didnt win.
On the 2012-2013 season....
Widely regarded as a failed superteam mainly due to injuries, the Lakers started out the season as a top 2 favorite to win the championship (the other team being the defending champions Miami Heat who ended up repeating) and the Lakers were projected to win 58 games. The Lakers were also the top favorite to win the Western Conference.[2][3][4][5]
But really, Kobe was actually one of my favorite players, and I still maintain he played the most beautiful game I've ever seen, even if his effect on winning is pretty overrated because he got to played with some of the most stacked lineups over the course of his career.
And poor George Gervin.
I also forgot that Kobe ruined Glen Rice, who finished 6th and 11th in the 2 years prior to joining the Shaq/Kobe Lakers. My god was that team stacked. Shaq/Kobe/Rice was definitely a superteam. You could almost argue Kobe is one of the biggest underachievers of all time with the stacked teams he got. Well, that argument would be absolutely true if he was a #2 all time, but since he's more like 12th-15th his performance with stacked teams isn't such a sore thumb. Th
Fwiw Gerviin didn’t play with mj .
Mj was injured that year .
And he retired after that season .
Except they did. Gervin went to an All Star to a guy that couldn't get minutes in the playoffs after playing with MJ. Destroyed him. Only 33 as well. Sad.
He was younger than Wade and FG has said that being Wade's age in the 4th year of the Heat isn't over the hill. Still in his prime.
”I have no comment on the trade,” Jordan said in an uncharacteristic brushoff. ”Just say I am unhappy.”
lol. Imagine if LeBron said that. FG would be all over him saying he's a terrible teammate and person. MJ was doing this after his rookie season.
Guess which season is MJ's rookie season...
Except they did. Gervin went to an All Star to a guy that couldn't get minutes in the playoffs after playing with MJ. Destroyed him. Only 33 as well. Sad.
He was younger than Wade and FG has said that being Wade's age in the 4th year of the Heat isn't over the hill. Still in his prime.
Wha are u talking about ….
You blame MJ lol???
Gervin started 75 games that year and played as much minute as MJ and scored 16ppg .
MJ started 7 games that year !
All the other games mj was restricted to like 10-20 min playtime making his return slowly because of doctor orders …
So again why for like 60 games gervin couldn’t do much better than 16 ppg without MJ ?
It was Gervin team and they lost badly throughout the season .
Some Players just get old faster shrug .
Gervin played 2 games in the playoff vs the Celtic and they get wiped out even tho mj made an historic of 63 pts vs 4-5 HoF .
I guess Gervin didn’t even suit up seeing the previous game where MJ played an historic game , he thought he didn’t had anything to teach to MJ and Gervin was a SG ….
To blame mj is ridiculous …
The whole point was to make a mockery of Fallguys 418th mention of how Lebron ruined IT's career even though they played 15 games together and IT achieved nothing else that year or in any year that followed.
IT is to Lebron pretty much what Gervin was to Jordan.
big if true
Spoiler
Spoiler
team Jordan now?
The whole point was to make a mockery of Fallguys 418th mention of how Lebron ruined IT's career even though they played 15 games together and IT achieved nothing else that year or in any year that followed.
IT is to Lebron pretty much what Gervin was to Jordan.
You can make excuses for some guys like IT, but the point is that ONLY LEBRON has a bevy of guys that cratered alongside him and didn't play anywhere near their career highs (capacity), while Jordan was the opposite - most guys grew alongside him and played to capacity.
Again, this is due to skillset - when MJ drops 40, teammates are still assisting him and the ball is moving because he's generally off-the-ball, so teammates literally HAVE the ball in their hands - they have the opportunity to get their normal stats and play their game.. Otoh, Lebron's ball-domination stops the ball, hogs the assists and imposes spot-up roles
It's not excuses. IT is irrelevant. If he's not, then you're the one making excuses for George Gervin.
Lebron won championships with 3 different casts, Wade/Irving/Davis all did just fine and excellent with him. He proved that he could elevate multiple casts to championship level.
Half the time you're ragging on Pippen and the rest of Jordan's cast for giving no help, and half the time you're giving Jordan credit for developing teammates that excelled with him, which is it?
Oh yeah, of course all your arguments flip flop back and forth to suit whatever nonsense narrative you need to push to satisfy your case, you just hate Lebron with an epic level of passion and all your arguments are built around that hatred. They're nonsense.
Anyone who isn't fueled by hate has Lebron as either 1or 2. You have him outside the top ten. Nobody takes you seriously. But go ahead and repost the same nonsense.
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Lebron received 4 players that were superior to 1990 Pippen but his "bron-ball" skillset imposed spot-up roles, so he couldn't develop them or win anything with them like MJ did with Pippen:
05' HUGHES.................. 21.6 PER... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP... 4.3 BPM... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/6/5.... No All-D
09' MO WILLIAMS........ 17.2 PER... 0.165 WS/48... 3.1 VORP... 2.3 BPM... 17/3/4
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5
09' JAMISON................. 20.6 PER... 0.126 WS/48... 2.8 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 22/9/2
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5
06' ZYDRUNAS'.............. 21.9 PER... 0.184 WS/48... 2.1 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 16/8/1 (2 bpg)
90' PIPPEN..................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5
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Regular Season
Playoffs
True goats like MJ, Kobe, Curry or Russell win titles the majority of the years that they had "help", but Lebron mostly lost when he got help and with every cast... No one should be impressed with a so-called goat that barely wins 1 chip in 4 years each time that he has a stacked squad..
Only the Allen miracle allowed Lebron to do better than 1/4, and 2/4 was still a massive underachievement of the expectation.
To summarize, the many teams that Lebron played for provides sufficient sample to confirm that he can't produce "unbeatable" teams that mostly win for stretches, and infact mostly loses regardless of cast.. Lebron's propensity to lose is due to his inherently suboptimal skillset of high-scoring point guard play (ball-dominance), which prevents the best fits, chemistry, strategy and teams... "bron-ball" has the worst record in championship history.
The goat choke in 2011 occurred because of the bad fit with Wade/Lebron - nuff said.
The only guys that "fit" with Lebron were elite shooters like Kyrie or Mo, and also guys that are simply BETTER than Lebron at the time of the team-up like AD.. Virtually everyone else declined alongside Lebron..
The worst part is that Lebron reduced guys like Love, Kuzma, Hughes, Mo, and Wade to NOTHING by the time Lebron left them, and they had to rebound after he left.. Wade rebounded by nearly carrying the Heat to the ECF in 2016, while Kuzma and Ingram and similarly recovered as well.. Of course Love sacrificed his peak years for bron-ball - bballref shows that his HOF probability was a lock but cratered alongside Lebron - he would've been better off staying in Minnesota and collecting All-NBA awards, MVP finishes, and eventually HOF... He simply isn't viewed as great like he once was.
Half the time you're ragging on Pippen and the rest of Jordan's cast for giving no help, and half the time you're giving Jordan credit for developing teammates that excelled with him, which is it?
Everyone grew by leaps and bounds alongside Jordan but their peak capability was still low.. The Bulls probably had the lowest-scoring cast in the league, so MJ essentially raised bum rookies into veteran bed-wetters and won with them, while the winning spotlight gave teammates media accolade.. MJ three-peated with Pippen averaging 17 on 41% for the entire 96-98 Playoffs..
Otoh, Lebron cannot develop anyone and certainly never beat top teams with bed-wetting teammates.. He never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick.. He also never defeated max defensive attention (never carried scoring load on the championship level).
Oh yeah, of course all your arguments flip flop back and forth to suit whatever nonsense narrative you need to push to satisfy your case, you just hate Lebron with an epic level of passion and all your arguments are built around that hatred.
They're nonsense.
My arguments are statistical facts - Lebron cannot shoot a good percentage on jumpshots at any reasonable volume, so he's forced to rely on ball-dominance... He's actually the first high-scoring point guard (ball-dominator) in 3-pointer history, and this high-scoring ball-dominance turns everyone into spot-up shooter by reducing their assists and increasing their assisted rate.. These spot-up roles prevent the best strategy/coaching, fits, chemistry, and ultimately team ceilings/Finals records.. This is all statistical fact and historical record.
Anyone who isn't fueled by hate has Lebron as either 1or 2. You have him outside the top ten.
Before Nick Wright and Klutch Sports employees took the the airwaves in 2018, no one thought Lebron was #2 and there was never any talk of "lebron is #2"... That wasn't a thing.. It only became a thing after the media told you that it was.. So the only people that have Lebron #2 are the lapdogs that believe what they see on TV.. Unfortunately, that's a lot of people.. But fortunately, there are still plenty of clear-thinkers that don't have Lebron #2 or anywhere near - I recommend "Uncut Hoops" or "Angry ol' Hoops" for channels that do not pedestal the media's opinion and see things clearly, but there are a great many channels like these.
Anyone who isn't fueled by hate has Lebron as either 1or 2. You have him outside the top ten.
Here's the ultimate reason why lebron isn't #2.... If a GM is choosing between all-time producers, it makes sense to go with the player that learned the chemistry required to WIN WITH WHAT THEY HAD, rather than the guy that never learned elite chemistry and only learned "talent-based winning" (all-star team strategy, team-hopping).. Let's flesh this out with real-life examples.
History shows that Jokic learned the chemistry required to win with what he had because he learned how to win with a bum like Murray... Similarly, Curry learned the insane chemistry required to win with a bum like Klay (see stats above)... And of course MJ learned the goat chemistry required to win with a historic bricklayer, low-producer and choker like Pippen.. Otoh, Lebron never learned the chemistry required to win with the bevy of all-stars that he was gifted, such as Zydrunas, Mo, Jamison or Hughes - all of these guys were better than 1990 Pippen when Lebron received them, but he couldn't develop them or win with them - this is statistical fact (see previous post).
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It took 2 seconds to see that Angry Ol Hoops is basically a Lebron hater channel. Big surprise. Haters gonna hate.
It took 2 seconds to see that Angry Ol Hoops is basically a Lebron hater channel. Big surprise. Haters gonna hate.
Facts aren't hate.. Lebron loses catastrophically every year but the media treats him like he wins every year and has 7 titles.. It's completely fake coverage..
That's why Derek Fisher said that the NBA isn't about competing and seeing which player or team is the best anymore - it's just about entertainment now, hence the rule changes and GM's league-wide contributing to a roster overhaul for Lebron every year - no other player gets a roster overhaul every year or has the media clamoring for trades all year.. Only Lebron enjoys this because it's fake..
Lebron gets manufactured rosters and also fake awards like the in-season tourney MVP, Olympic MVP, or 20' Finals MVP, while also getting key opponents suspended - it wasn't just Draymond - many people don't realize that Lebron's 48 point game in the 07' Playoffs occurred because Antonio McDeyss was kicked out of the game early-on and he was their main PNR defender. - here's the play and listen to the commentators discuss the massive impact
... The decrepit Chris Webber replaced McDeyss, which allowed Lebron to be unshackled for that 1 game - he was otherwise locked up in every other game that McDeyss played, including the closeout game where Boobie carried the team to the Finals.. Btw, if you don't like Angry ol Hoops, try Skap Attack
They just create that stuff because they find the haters so amusing to troll. A+ stuff.
Fakes news, am i right?
FG - Who's a better offensive player, Kobe or Harden?
Nash was better offensively than both of them.
But the Lakers brought in Howard and Nash along with D'antoni to coach the Nash system to join Kobe and Pau Gasol. You wanna know how stacked that team was? Howard had just finished 7th in MVP voting, and had been in the top 7 for 5 straight years, and Nash had just finished 9th. Is there ever a superstar who was handed 2 guys that were top 10 in MVP voting the year before? Along with the coach who had coached Nash to the best offenses in history? And his co-star who had won 2 championships with his already?
Howard played 76 games at 35.8 minutes per game
Nash played 50 games at 32.5 minutes per game
Oh yeah, and superstar Antawn Jamison, immediately fresh off his superstar years playing alongside Lebron, was there playing 21.5 minutes per game for 76 games.
Ron Artest played 75 games at 33.7 minutes per game
Pau Gasol played 49 games at 33.8 minutes per game
And Kobe played 78 games at 38.6 minutes per game
That team was as stacked as any team in the last 25 years. And their health wasn't that bad at all. Even Nash and Pau played 65% of the games and at full time minutes. 45-37 because Kobe's style doesn't allow a stacked team to do it's thing. Kobe and Shaq only got it together for 3 years out of 8, and since someone is always whining about Allen making a big shot we have to remember that Horry and Fisher made huge shots during that run.
That Kobe/Howard/Nash/Gasol/Artest team was the favourites to win the West going into the season. That team should've dominated.
Also, after 3 straight years of not making the all star team playing with Kobe, Gasol left and made back to back all star teams at age 34 and 35. And 7 years later a washed up Howard was a key player for a Lebron championship team.
Great points. But fake news won't tell you that.
You forgot the Championship that the Lakers were gifted when the refs cheated in Game 6 of the ECFs.
Imagine if they lose that. Kobe would probably drop outside the 20 in the GOAT rankings.
Nash was better offensively than both of them.
But the Lakers brought in Howard and Nash along with D'antoni to coach the Nash system to join Kobe and Pau Gasol. You wanna know how stacked that team was? Howard had just finished 7th in MVP voting, and had been in the top 7 for 5 straight years, and Nash had just finished 9th. Is there ever a superstar who was handed 2 guys that were top 10 in MVP voting the year before? Along with the coach who had coached Nash to the best offenses in histor
Playing 65% of the games is “good health”?
And it was their defense that was trash not their offense. Offense was 6th that year in ppg, 8th in ts%. Nash was 38 and out of the league two years later. Dwight declined pretty rapidly after he left Orlando across all teams he played for (even though he was still young). Didn’t he have major back issues?
That team didn’t appear healthy nor stacked to me? Bunch of players past their primes.
If you have 5 starters, and 3 of them are healthy all year, and 2 of them play 65% of the games at full load, I'd say healthwise thats not bad at all.
If that was a Lebron team we'd never hear the end from Fallguy about how Lebron ruined Howard and Nash.
out of curiosity Matt, how do you feel about an all time list that has Kobe at 2 and Lebron at 11?
