Donk betting range otf (?)

I don't think you donk here do you? I thought it was more 7 and 6 high rainbow unpaired boards you donk?

This hurts the raisers range, you can check raise for value and protection

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Do we really want to donk bet into two players with bottom 2-pair on this super wet board? It feels like all this would accomplish is to freeze both of them, bloating the pot when we're OOP with a very vulnerable hand.

I wouldn't donk here. Check raise, maybe check call because it is hard to get paid off in multiway pots and it wouldn't hurt to bring the fish along.

Pre I'd consider folding facing a 5x iso and likely being OOP 3 multiway.

I don’t think we get to donk, both their ranges can make nutted hands on this board.

For what it’s worth, donking with this hand doesn’t seem that appealing, I would rather check call and play turns.

Not donking, very likely check-raising with our very vulnerable hand. We hate half the deck---any A through T, any club---and even vs AQcc right now, we're flipping. We block sets, except for QQ and if the TAG has it, oh well. TAG shouldn't have Q9, and there's only one combo of Q9s anyway.

JT might be a problem, ofc. Fish probably has all of them, too, along with everything else in their limp-overcall range. Even with a 5x open by the TAG. Let's see if either V lets us know they have it.

This is a great spot to donk. I don't think the size matters much, but I'd probably go 1/3 to 1/2 pot.

We want to get some value from the fish, before action gets to the PFR. If we go for the check raise, the PFR might check back, and even when he doesn't, we're pushing the fish out when we x/r over a c-bet.

I'm not sure why you're discounting the possibility that the fish has us crushed here.

Dunno about crushed, but this should hit a fish's limp/overcall range, and so a donk from Vf shouldn't be unexpected.

I want to see what both Vf and Vt are going to do before I start sticking money in. Vf 1/2 pot donk, Vt 3.5x raise, I'm going to start reconsidering the strength of my bottom 2. If Vt makes a usual tag'y 1/2 pot cbet, then I'll x-r. Not terribly concerned about ensuring Vf or Vt remains in the hand, with what might barely, currently be the best hand by H. Ofc, if they're slow-playing JT, I'm probably toast, but that's a small chance vs the rest of their ranges that don't quite have H dead yet.

If it checks through, deep intake of breath, and I hopefully miss half the deck. If I do, bottom 2p looks a lot better.

Who said I was? What's the point of getting involved with a SC if we're going to be afraid of MUBs when we flop 2P?

We don't play suited connectors hoping to flop bottom two-pair.

This is not a monotone flop. Try again.

Oooff, my bad. Thought I'd checked it more than once and was sure it was Qc9c8c.

Still wouldn't donk, but it's nowhere near as bad.

This flop hits a TAGish reg's isolating range pretty well. We do not have nut advantage (although we have JTs in our range, so do both the fish and the iso-raiser; we don't have QQ or 99, nor overpairs). We do not have range advantage. The pot is multiway.

We want to have a well-constructed donking range when the opposition is likely to check behind. Because this board is good for the iso-raiser, I think we can expect a lot of c-bets.

Quite apart from who has the betting initiative, we need to have a lot of strength (or be drawing to a lot of strength) when we lead into a crowd. I do not think bottom two pair is strong enough in general.

I dont think you NEED to have a donk range at all. I personally keep my gameplan simple, and ive tried to add complexity to my game one piece at a time. So if you want to add a donking range, great, but I think you need to study donking from a more holistic standpoint, not just as far as when to do it and with what, but also how it may affect your checking strategy. I think donking is probably more relevant of a strategy multiway and of course there isnt even close to as much info out there for multiway spots. But i would venture that HU donking spots would give you some insight on where to MW 3 bet.

I personally havent added a donking strategy so I have no opinion about this particular hand.

Were we hoping to flop the bottom end of a straight, or a draw to a 9-high flush, in a three-way pot?

Beggars can't be choosers. If we're going to defend the BB by flatting with 98s, and flop two pair, we shouldn't be scared that the limper has one of the small handful of combos that has us crushed, rather than thinking about how to extract max value from all the many more hands we have beat, that will call if we donk, but would be happy to check, and will just lol-fold if we check-raise.

Like, seriously, how strong a hand do we need here to bet it for value? Were you hoping to flop a boat?

Good discussion, thanks everyone.

Here is my thinking process for this spot.

First of all, I agree that the call preflop is borderline.

OTF, my default play is to c/r. However, I can see at least two criticalities:
1. My hand is at the very bottom of a reasonable c/r range for value.
2. We will very often blow the fish off the pot (and when we don't, it means that we are most likely crushed).
Moreover, a c/r seems particularly bad if the preflop raiser is capable of folding TPTK or an overpair (whether this is right or wrong in theory).

On the other hand, I do not really like c/c because it leaves us in a sort of no man's land on later streets, with half the deck which we are not happy to see.

That is why I was considering to move bottom 2p in an hypothetical donking range, in similar spots.

I actually like the hand selection precisely BECAUSE we're not super nutted. You'll find the hands that prefer to donk are ones that are going for exactly 3 streets of value so you can b/b/b, whereas stronger hands prefer to x/r so they can get 4+ bets in (or if it's a turn donk, then exactly 2 streets, or exactly 1 street for the river, you get the idea). This is especially true for smaller sizes, which donk bets tend to be.

I also think your position is good for considering a lead (with both worst relative and absolute position).

I tend to think leading into two players on a Q98tt board in particular is asking for trouble and I personally stick to the more standard non-broadway straight boards. But for exploitative purposes, you could probably lead with a range of like just this hand and maybe some especially strong gutshots (KTdd) and weak OESDs (76s) because they would be tragic to x/f.

If you don't donk bet at all currently I would build up your range from a few simpler spots and go from there. Generally you don't donk multiway without the nut advantage and even then it's better to avoid leading this spot. From a learning perspective I would start building your range from BTN vs. BB or LP vs BB and focus on a specific board texture. I built my own BB donk range starting with T high connected textures vs LP and it's been very profitable. You are like trying to go from Lvl 1 donker to Lvl 100 starting here.

If you're interested, there's some decent content regarding developing a donk strategy online. Upswing has a good article on it, and Hungry Horse (Marc Goone) on YT has brought it up in some videos.

Generally, it's good to have a donk strat when we flop value multi-way on a dynamic board. One of my favorite lines is to donk 2P/sets and the best combo-draws in multi-way pots, when the PFR is last to act.

People always assume we're always going to check-raise with 2P/sets and combo draws. They always think a donk is a weak TP, a strong 2nd pair, or a 8/9 out draw trying to set its own price. Read any "fish donked into hero as the PFR" thread. That's what everyone says is happening. If it's "passive fish check-raised me", it's always "that's 2P or a set - fold!"

Had one two sessions ago - fish limps MP, another fish raises from LP. I defend the BB with 87s. Flop comes 8h7h6d. I donk 2/3 pot. Fish calls. PFR jams 2x pot on me. Couldn't get my stack into the middle fast enough. Like, he never has a straight or a set there. The other fish folds. PFR rolls over KK, and I show him the bad news.

Think he might have knocked over a chair or two as he was leaving.

And yes, I would have played 76s exactly the same way. If either opponent has a better hand, so be it. NH. GG.

What do people like doing with, say 65dd here (assuming we get to the flop with it, which is a big assumption)? How much does the presence of the limper affect your decision?

I'm just check-folding 6d5d here.

Yeah im c/f gutshot + bdfd on a board like this 3 ways with a player left to act. Everyone’s ranges should be tighter.

What i will say is the fish might give off a folding tell, and maybe i think V cbets too frequently and barrels too rarely and then maybe id float.