LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
You know, I didn’t realize how trash most of those Houston teams were when Harden was at his absolute peak. For the most part, Harden had literally zero decent help and they were still extremely competitive in a tough Western conference.
The years they had Chris Paul they almost took out the Golden State superteam. And Paul wasn’t even healthy for a lot of that.
Fallguy is seriously, seriously underrating Harden. Sort by jump shooter isn’t the greatest criteria in the world.
And that means Pippen can be the goat #3 if he wants... Goat #2 is ridiculous for Pippen since Pippen was carried in every series, while Kobe is goat #2 because he was actually a 1b and the closer..... And of course Kobe proved that he was a goat #1 option as well when he went back-to-back with a 2nd option that was worse than Love or Bosh.
All of this makes Kobe the 2nd best player of all-time.. His goat scoring diversity fit with any teammate or system, thereby allowing the best chemistry and team ceilings (3-peat, or repeat with Bosh-level sidekick).
Scoring diversity is not the same thing as scoring ability.
One can argue a ball dominant skill set makes the overall offense worse in some schemes or with some personnel,
but that doesn’t make a guy that has averaged 35 ppg on 49% eFG a better scorer “BY FAR” (your words) than a guy that has averaged 36 ppg on 54% eFG.
It is "by far" because Kobe went back-to-back with a Bosh-level sidekick, while Harden couldn't win with KD, Kawhi, Embiid, CP3 and Westbrook..
Infact, you've helped me realize that "by far" is an understatement.. Kobe was WORLD'S and UNIVERSES better than harden.
I’m not going to check in detail right now, but at a glance Jordan’s eFG% at his peak and relative to the league average (i.e. adjusted for rule differences, era, other factors) is quite a bit better than Harden and I’m pretty sure his relative volume was higher too.
At a glance it seems like Duncan’s is slightly higher too, but closer. Kobe a decent amount less.
Maybe Harden was actually pretty good at his peak, and this is reflected in actual numbers which measure the thing in question.
The offensive strategy employed by the coach is dictated by the skillset of the #1 option and franchise player.. If the #1 option is a spotty-shooting, ball-dominator with a dominant drive, then the coach is forced to cater to this dominant drive - the alternative would be to shun the best talent and cater to lesser talents, which makes no sense.. The coaches of Luka, Lebron, Caitlin, Harden, SGA, Westbrook, and other high-scoring point guards put the coach in handcuffs by forcing them to employ a "heliocentric" offense, which is a euphemism for a ball-dominant, "down-hill" skillset that imposes spot-up roles and weak chemistry - it isn't 5-man basketball, so it competes at a lottery level in the championship (22-33 and -86).
Otoh, the skillset of expert jumpshooters like Curry, MJ, Kobe or Bird allows them to play off teammates and off-ball, which allows the ball to move and have high-assist teams, great chemistry and better teams with less help.. Their zippy ball movement wins the attrition battle by wearing down defenses, thus leaving them less capacity for offense, whereas the plodding ball-domination of Harden and Lebron lets defenses rest, so they have more capacity to "get hot" on offense.. History shows that any good ball movement team gets hot against bron-ball, such as Nuggets, Warriors, Spurs, Magic or Mavs - but again, these ball movement teams require expert jumpshooters or fundamental bigs, who let the ball move (Jokic, Curry, Duncan, Dwight, Dirk).
So if we, say, have a pure jump shooter coming off the bench averaging 8ppg and shooting 35%, are you saying they are a better scorer and offensive player than Harden, LeBron, Luka because they have a better brand of ball that doesn’t reduce teammates to spot up jump shooters?
Kobe doesn't average 8 ppg, so your example is unreasonable - when the stats are much closer as they are with Kobe vs Westbrook, Harden or Lebron, other factors like brand of ball and teammate elevation are the differentiating factors.. Essentially, a skillset that produces great chemistry is a superior indicator of long-run title equity than anything else, since chemistry allows unbeatable teams or winning with less talent, which fuel long-run title equity more than anything else.. Accordingly, skillsets that yield better chemistry (ball movement) will be the differentiating factors when the PER's are within a few points.
Btw, Kobe's peak PPG is equal or better than all of these guys, while the assists are a function ball-domination that hogs the assists and yields low TEAM assists... Meanwhile, turnovers are more important than shooting efficiency and affect a team's offensive rating much more.... So to summarize - turnovers is another reason that the ball-dominant skillset hurts brand of ball, along with the aforementioned weak ball movement/low team assists and imposing spot-up roles or weak chemistry/fits.. Harden and Bron average 5 turnovers at high-scoring volumes and at their peaks, compared to 3 for Kobe.. that's a big difference.
This depends entirely on the team. Some players are really really good spot up jump shooters. Hypothetically, if you have a good enough “ball dominator” that is an excellent playmaker, combined with good enough spot up shooters, this offense could be really good.
High-scoring ball-dominators like Luka, Harden and Lebron are last in team assists - this matters because low team assists is correlated with a lack of 5-man basketball, which can't beat top teams and competes at a lottery level in the championship..
The brand of low team assists and ball-dominance isn't even EXPECTED to win on the championship level by virtue of perennial underdog status in the Finals.. In Lebron's case, his perennial underdog status in the Finals occurs after being the preseason favorite every year from 2011 to 2016, which shows how the weak brand underachieves favored talent, i.e. loses with the preseason favorite, of falls to underdog.. Lebron lost 7 times with preseason favorites or homecourt, so no one underachieved favored talent more than "bron-ball".. That's what weak brands DO - they underachieve favored talent.
Harden was a pretty good offensive player…. (???) it’s hard to average 36ppg on above average league efficiency regardless of offensive sets being used.
Iverson, Kobe, MJ, or Bird - heck Adrian Dantley could average 36 with today's spacing, open paint and hands-off beginner format.. It's a joke.. Tons of guys could do what Harden did..... And some guys like MJ, Bird or Curry wouldn't need to completely dominate the ball and not let teammates touch the ball like Harden, Luka and Lebron's skillsets require.
Btw, we have mentioned that ball-dominators like Westbrook and Lebron are #1 all-time in turnovers, and turnovers affect a team's offensive rating and brand of ball more than shooting efficiency... There are many examples, such as Lebron averaging 5 turnovers in 24 minutes per game in the Olympics - this is the equivalent to 7 turnovers per game at 40 minutes in the NBA, yet people wonder how the Olympic games were so close, smh.. Lebron's first-ever choke was 7 turnovers in the 4th of Game 4 that swung the 09' ECF - he averaged 12 turnovers per 48 minutes of clutch time in that series, so it's impossible to win a close series if the primary ball-handler turns into a 12 turnover per game player in clutch-time.. Lebron also averaged 6 TO's for the 07' Finals or 08' ECSF, while turning the ball over to lose 4 straight 4th quarter leads in a sweep loss to the Nuggets - this was an unprecedented way to lose and only the woat chemistry of "bron-bal" could uncover it.
.
Regular Season
Playoffs
Isn't Reggie Miller the best expert off ball "jumpshooter" of the 90's? How does he rank offensively?
klay took 2 free throws per game, while Miller took 7 free throws and A LOT of two-pointers, so he was extremely crafty, pure scorer with far more actual BASKETBALL to his game than a spot-up guy like Klay.
There are levels to this and and miller was on the top level, which is easy to demonstrate by looking at the stats above - Klay is nowhere near Hornacek, who is nowhere near Miller..
Miller never had an all-star teammate in his career, yet he had many deep and historic playoff runs, while also making the Finals and significantly outplaying Kobe.. Accordingly, his ball movement skillset yielded the same winning with less that MJ, Kobe and Curry had, and perhaps Miller could've won like they did if he had just 1 low-producing all-star like they did.
.
Kobe had a goat post game and footwork, and he also had a goat live-dribble bag for getting by guys... goat pull-up game & shot-making
so he had goat scoring ability, not just goat diversity
harden is only goat at the live-dribble game to get by guys... his pull-up game is nowhere near Kobe's because Kobe could pull-up and elevate off hard dribbles going either direction, while Harden can only step back and his elevation is non existent.. There's no real comparison - Kobe's style was far superior, and that's not to crap on Harden - he's amazing too but show me where he's dunking on guys off a vertical for example - simple stuff like that he can't even do.. His game is limited compared to Kobe's goat scoring ability and diversity.
Kobe would probably been far better then harden in the offensive end if he wasn’t all defensive 1st team while doing 30+ ppg …
But Kobe did care about winning in every phase of the game .
Kobe far better .
LeFreak, will be interesting to see how bad it is. Judging from his previous character eg The disgusting decision etc, its likely reallllyyy bad
Kobe had a goat post game and footwork, and he also had a goat live-dribble bag for getting by guys... goat pull-up game & shot-making
so he had goat scoring ability, not just goat diversity
harden is only goat at the live-dribble game to get by guys... his pull-up game is nowhere near Kobe's because Kobe could pull-up and elevate off hard dribbles going either direction, while Harden can only step back and his elevation is non existent.. There's no real comparison - Kobe's style was far superior,
Interesting. Why do you think Harden made 5% more of his shots and averaged more points? If Kobe had both superior ability and scoring diversity, was he just not trying as hard?
It is "by far" because Kobe went back-to-back with a Bosh-level sidekick, while Harden couldn't win with KD, Kawhi, Embiid, CP3 and Westbrook..
Now give the ages and injury statuses of these players and Harden when they got knocked out of the playoffs. For bonus points, list the teams that knocked them out and how far they made it in the playoffs. I’ll start: CP3 was injured in the series, didn’t play every game, and they only lost 3-4 to the superteam Steph Curry and Kevin Durant Golden State Warriors. Do the (eventual champion) Milwaukee Bucks series next and note how many games Harden played that series.
Do you think Kobe playing with prime Shaq helped him win any of his titles?
If Gasol wasn't even as good as Bosh, then how bad was Kobe.
I mean Kobe has a decent case of being the best Laker in 2009 (it's close), but 2010 and there's really no argument that it's Gasol's Team.
Regular Season
Playoffs
Interesting. Why do you think Harden made 5% more of his shots and averaged more points? If Kobe had both superior ability and scoring diversity, was he just not trying as hard?
Kobe liked to miss a lot of shots because it made his team better, that's the key to being GOAT obviously.
He rarely accomplished much as the best player on a team. Shaq won 3 rings as the best Laker and then went and won a ring in Miami and rapped in a club asking Kobe to tell him how his ass tasted. Shaq was by far the bigger impact in that era.
If Shaq had the right work ethic, he probably could've been the GOAT modern player as far as impact. As it is, he might be as high as 3rd after Jordan/Lebron). I value longevity. If 2 players have a similar impact, but one player does it for 15 years and the other for only 11 years, my vote goes to the guy who did it for 15, especially when he throws in a few more good years too. And then Shaq is a guy who had a huge impact but really only for 6 to 8 years before a significant decline.
Interesting. Why do you think Harden made 5% more of his shots and averaged more points? If Kobe had both superior ability and scoring diversity, was he just not trying as hard?
Kobe's game inherently has a better brand of ball than Harden because Kobe was still assisted on 44% of his buckets when he averaged 35 ppg, compared to a pathetic 13% for Harden when he averaged 36 in 2019 - so Harden was just doing everything himself and scoring via ball-dominance, while Kobe was scoring by allowing teammates to assist him and the ball to move... So based on that 44% to 13% gap - this gap is a representation of how much more ball movement Kobe allows - it looks like over 3 times more.. This superior capacity for ball movement allows superior strategic capacity/coaching, while unassisted ball-dominators like Harden, Luka and Lebron put handcuffs on coaches and impose spot-up roles.
Kobe's game inherently has a better brand of ball than Harden because Kobe was still assisted on 44% of his buckets when he averaged 35 ppg, compared to a pathetic 13% for Harden when he averaged 36 in 2019 - so Harden was just doing everything himself and scoring via ball-dominance, while Kobe was scoring by allowing teammates to assist him and the ball to move... So based on that 44% to 13% gap - this gap is a representation of how much more ball movement Kobe allows - it looks like over 3 tim
So you are saying Kobe’s eFG% went down because his shots were assisted more often?
I dunno man, it’s been a while since I’ve played but I always found shots easier when someone hit me with a pass and gave me a wide open look vs creating it myself.
(There are two different points being made here: which offensive style is better (ball movement vs heliocentric) and is Kobe a far better offensive player than Harden. These are two very different things.)
If Gasol wasn't even as good as Bosh, then how bad was Kobe.
I mean Kobe has a decent case of being the best Laker in 2009 (it's close), but 2010 and there's really no argument that it's Gasol's Team.
Regular Season
Playoffs
This might be a troll.
But Kobe was definitely better than Pau during those 2 title seasons.
Kobe scored like 30 in those playoffs.
I watched and remember those games. Why I was convinced Kobe was better than Lebron at the time. His impact could be felt everywhere. If his finals were as good as his previous rounds then they'd be talked about like legendary runs. Slaughtered the Melo/Billups Nuggets!
This might be a troll.
But Kobe was definitely better than Pau during those 2 title seasons.
Kobe scored like 30 in those playoffs.
I watched and remember those games. Why I was convinced Kobe was better than Lebron at the time. His impact could be felt everywhere. If his finals were as good as his previous rounds then they'd be talked about like legendary runs. Slaughtered the Melo/Billups Nuggets!
My point is that Pau was awesome in those two year. Any other take is bad. This wasn't a Kobe show.
And he obviously played at a level much higher than Love.
Kobe was terrible in the opening round that year and legitimately got saved by Pau. So he had two good series and two terrible ones.
Also Nuggets were 2009.
Lebron or Jordan in their primes were always unquestionably the highest impact players on their teams by any reasonable metric. In his final championship at age 35, Lebron was still a higher impact player in the playoffs than Davis, although Davis was better during the regular season.
Kobe mostly wasn't, at least on the teams that won. How anyone thinks he belongs in this discussion is mind blowing.
Lebron or Jordan in their primes were always unquestionably the highest impact players on their teams by any reasonable metric.
Everyone was there and watched AD lift a lottery team to champion in 1 season by leading both sides of the ball - he turned the defense from worst to 1st and led the league in scoring (for the playoffs and also the Lakers' regular season).
Everyone also saw AD carry the Lakers to the Finals by winning the "real" Finals over Jokic - everyone remembers this - it's virtually impossible that Lebron was the "unquestioned highest impact player" in 2020 because a teammate led both sides of the ball and lifted the team from lottery to champion.
Remember when Kuzma pushed Lebron to play defense in the middle of the game - Lebron hasn't been all-defense in 10 years and never in his 30's.. So Lebron was a bad defender in 2020, which means that AD ran the entire defensive side of the ball, while being the team's leading scorer and carrying the team to the Finals over Jokic... The media simply lies and maintains that Lebron is the best player with no real backup or support - all the evidence shows that AD has been "the man" on the Lakers since he arrived and turned 6 straight lottery seasons into champion (5 of those seasons were Kobe and one was Lebron in 2019).
Lebron or Jordan in their primes were always unquestionably the highest impact players on their teams by any reasonable metric.
Yeah but Jordan didn't just dominate his team's distribution of stats, he did so while allowing a great brand of ball, teammate development, fits, and great strategic capacity/coaching... Otoh, lebron achieved his stats by handcuffing the coach and imposing spot-up roles and bad fits or cratering many teammates (zero young player development and bad fits with many teammates).
In his final championship at age 35, Lebron was still a higher impact player in the playoffs than Davis
He wasn't and it was close either way - this closeness disqualifies him from comparison to Jordan, who always carried his team statistically for every title..
This is one of the reasons that no one compares to Jordan - no one carried their team and was the "unquestioned highest impact player" for every title like Jordan was... Also, no one routinely beat top teams with weak help like Jordan because no one beat top 5 SRS teams with weak scoring & efficiency from sidekick, except in one-off fashion - no one did it routinely... No one was beating top teams as a standard with KAT or Wiggins-type crap production from a sidekick.. Only MJ.. Only the goat won with crap as a standard.
My point is that Pau was awesome in those two year. Any other take is bad. This wasn't a Kobe show.
And he obviously played at a level much higher than Love.
When a player carries the scoring load, it means that he's the primary threat and focus of the defense.. As the primary focus, the player must defeat "maximum defensive attention" (carry the scoring load)... Kobe did this by averaging 10 more than all teammates for the regular season, playoffs and Finals for 2 title runs in 09' and 10' - the only other guys to win titles while defeating max defensive attention are ONE-OFF'S, such as 94' Hakeem, 00' Shaq, 03' Duncan, 06' Wade and then Jordan/Kobe did it 8 times combined.
So Kobe's 09' and 10' titles are some of the MOST DOMINANT EVER, but you simply have 2 different standards that you're using - if Lebron only had 1 other star and had to carry the scoring and clutch load (no "closer" teammates), you would be singing his goat praises and saying he can carry trash to titles.. But when Kobe did exactly that, you say it's nothing... He won in a way that was closer to MJ and a way that Lebron cannot do (carrying the scoring load/defeating max defensive attention), yet you ignore it and pretend that carrying the scoring load while winning a title isn't a goat achievement.
My point is that Pau was awesome in those two year. Any other take is bad. This wasn't a Kobe show.
And he obviously played at a level much higher than Love.
Let's look at series where Lebron was carried by teammates... Wade carried Lebron in the 2011 Playoffs and Finals - this alone puts Lebron below Kobe... 😮...
Then there's the 2020 Playoffs, where AD led the entire league in scoring and was goat-level against Jokic - did Lebron ever outplay anyone as good as Jokic?... Lebron never clearly outplayed KD, for example.
Then there's the 2014 ECF, where Wade averaged 20 and Lebron averaged 23 but had weaker clutch-time stats...
And Kyrie was FAR better than Lebron in the 1st Round of 2016 - look it up - he also provided unprecedented help in the Finals by being the only sidekick in history to outplay a current league MVP (the hottest thing in the league) - this unprecedented help explains the Cavs' victory... Kyrie was also an equal-scoring partner to attract equal defensive attention, so Lebron never defeated maximum defensive attention (never carried scoring load in the Finals).
So you are saying Kobe’s eFG% went down because his shots were assisted more often?
I dunno man, it’s been a while since I’ve played but I always found shots easier when someone hit me with a pass and gave me a wide open look vs creating it myself.
(There are two different points being made here: which offensive style is better (ball movement vs heliocentric) and is Kobe a far better offensive player than Harden. These are two very different things.)
Who knows why Kobe's efg was lower - I guess he wasn't as good at those shots as Jordan... But you're focusing on Kobe and Harden too much and not enough on how they impact teammates - harden's ball-domination craters teammates, regardless of how great Harden himself shoots....
otoh, Kobe's lower efg was achieved as teammates assisted him, which produced better ball movement, chemistry, and teams, so that's more important than Kobe's efficiency on the actual shots.. His efficiency was sufficient to achieve goat winning, goat chemisry and goat strategy, so you're overvaluing it's importance.. Again, it only matters if it ventures into Westbrook or Iverson territory - then it metastasizes into something cancerous, whereas Kobe's efficiency was benign.
lol
Kobe averaged 8.7ppg more than Pau in 2008-09 season because he took 8 shots more per game.
Kobe averaged 11.9ppg more than Pau in 2009 because he took 12 more shots per game (playoffs).
Kobe averaged 8.7ppg more than Pau in 2009-10 season because he took 8.5 shots more per game.
Kobe averaged 9.6ppg more than Pau in 2010 because he took 9 more shots per game (playoffs).
Stop being so ignorant about scoring load.
Who knows why Kobe's efg was lower - I guess he wasn't as good at those shots as Jordan... But you're focusing on Kobe and Harden too much and not enough on how they impact teammates - harden's ball-domination craters teammates, regardless of how great Harden himself shoots....
otoh, Kobe's lower efg was achieved as teammates assisted him, which produced better ball movement, chemistry, and teams, so that's more important than Kobe's efficiency on the actual shots.. His efficiency was sufficient
You're yet to provide any evidence that Kobe led offenses are that much better than Harden led offenses. Lots of talk, but no bite.
Who knows why Kobe's efg was lower - I guess he wasn't as good at those shots as Jordan... But you're focusing on Kobe and Harden too much and not enough on how they impact teammates - harden's ball-domination craters teammates, regardless of how great Harden himself shoots....
otoh, Kobe's lower efg was achieved as teammates assisted him, which produced better ball movement, chemistry, and teams, so that's more important than Kobe's efficiency on the actual shots.. His efficiency was sufficient
I feel like prime Shaq, Phil Jackson, and then an excellent player in Pau Gasol also contributed to goat winning, chemistry, and strategy. Probably more so than a lower shooting percentage. But that’s just me.
If Harden’s play style cratered teammates then why were those Houston Rockets offenses circa 2015-2020 among some of the best offenses in NBA history?
