Big bluff with nut flush blocker

Seems well played to me.

In theory, good. However, you are trying to make him fold a flush. What else does he x/r and call your 3! with? River is overbet for almost twice pot.

Yes, I am trying to make him fold a flush (could be a set as well, though not sure if he XR this on turn). Like I said, this is a thinking player, not a random fish, and I have an image of having it much more often than not.

If you are going to make the play, I would make it less than twice pot, to risk less and it might be more believable that you want a call. Depends on read whether "good" amateur player will fold a flush. Also the way he played it, he probably has a high flush: both on the turn, and calling preflop out of the SB.

Being in position, I think I would prefer calling the turn and looking at what he does on the river.

I like the river sizing. You are trying to get folds from smaller flushes, sets, two pair, etc. Pot isn't what you should be aiming.

Even if you call turn, you can still make a massive raise on the river. Like, jam no matter how big the overbet is.

But it is risky. It is usually not a good idea to try to get a really strong hand to fold, but if you're going to do it, you're going to do it with a hand like the nut flush blocker, and it is a huge mistake not to be putting in the massive overbet on the river when you are trying to get a fold.

I see what you're saying, but I feel like after calling turn and jamming river vs bet, I pretty much never get a fold – it just looks so much like exactly what I had in this hand.

Having said that, I can also see problems with the turn 3b. If we were to only put nut flushes and nut flush blockers in the 3b range, then when he calls the 3b and the river is a diamond, we're suddenly out of bluffs. We literally always have the nuts. That's not ideal, and it means we should probably also put some other hands in there. But what hands would make sense to include? Preferably hands that have equity against a flush, so sets? But sets really don't want to get 4b jammed on... Kind of a tough spot to be balanced in. Then of course there's the question of how balanced do we need to be in a live 5/5 game.

Generally speaking, you don't make money in poker by trying to get people to fold flushes. Thinking player or not, the spots you want to attack are those where your opponent is weak and/or capped. And xc flop xr turn is not one of them.

It's perfectly okay to have zero bluffs in some spots - in fact you'll find that as long as you're attacking the overfolded spots aggressively enough, people will still pay you off in less overfolded spots where you only have value.

The twice pot overbet needs to work about 2/3 of the time. More if you didn't expect the turn 3! to work. Then you want him to fold the 2nd or 3rd nut flush.

As mentioned, there are easier spots to attack weakness. Particularly as the stakes are not all that high, players will show strength or weakness. Here he shows strength.

This is a classic PLO play, and would be totally good in PLO against a decent player.

I don’t do this often but I like it.

wow what a line. Are you bluffing or raising turn for value? I think I just call turn and eval river, maybe fold to a large barrel.

also I dont like 2x jam river. bet fold 500 looks stronger imo

Who says I run this bluff every time I have the nut blocker? Like I said, even the combo that I had I'm checking turn a decent amount. KdQx, KdJx, KdTx all get checked back on flop and turn sometimes. So yes, I'm repping about 8 combos of value, but I also have only a handful of bluffs.

How do you have 8 combos for value? You are representing the nut flush only, so KdQd, KdJd, KdTd, and Kd9d. You should be opening every suited king.

With whale in BB, I might open down to K5s. So 7 combos, not 8.

How does V view you? Not how do you actually play but how do you think he views your play. It is hard to make someone fold a flush unless they think you are an OMC that never bluffs in which case they likely fold to the 3 bet.

ok but you're never supposed to do this with AdKx and you're supposed to do it with fractional combos on KdXo so if you're running it with a hand you absolutely should not do it with, to me it implies you're going to do it very often with combos you should do it with

i see 12 potentially 15 bluff combos if you include KdKx (cbetting Kdkx otf much smaller ev mistake than doing this ott)

im not saying theres not merit to it but i dont think the blocker is enough reason to decide to put in 400bb w/o much more than provided. my guess is also if u dont think u can call a 2.5x raise ott than the turn 3b in siolation has to be incredibly -ev

ah mistyped. my guess is if you dont think you ever have the best hand* ev of 3b vs call drops dramatically (potentially he never folds in which case its like 50bb difference). am just not sure that getting to animal the river is worth that especially in a spot where he can pretty easily just say lol i have a flush u r prob opening KTdd+ and i have the jack and queen ok lets call. you actually need a pretty large parlay of things to go right.

still think it worked from tone in the thread

the other critical thing to factor in here, if you run this with KdXo u get to show him one card and look like a genius whereas here maybe he just thinks u have aa or something if u just show the ace :(

solve itself is kind of difficult to replicate ingame. would like to see it 400bb deep bc turn plays much less polar than humans will by both people - like i struggle to imagine u ever get 4b ott by anyone that isn't whale given u have kd but at least at 200 ur supposed to sometimes by Qxdd / Jxdd and 9d9x

lol. if i let it pick the size, it plays 2x pot or x as ip here otf (hj vs sb 200bb ranges but 400bb deep). turn xr size supposed to be like 3x pot as oop too if you're wondering how deep changes things. 3b turn like 10bb error compared to call, and jamming the river about 0ev. i think the idea is ok (he can't have nuts, slam $ into the pot) i just think it's getting way overdone here and it relies on oop folding really really good hands after doing something kind of stupid with them earlier.

interestingly it calls the turn xr quite a bit with KdXo hands which i wouldn't have really thought to do in game

When bluffing this type of spot we really want our line to be credible. I would ask, do you would play your nut flushes as a 3bet on the turn?

Because I think I would take a similar line with the nut flush up until we face the turn XR then I would probably just call IP and look to make a massive raise on the river.

As for hand selection I don't think this is the best combo to make this move with. It's probably better to take something like KdQx KdJx to use as a bluff. Plus when you have AxKd you still beat some bluffs and you can still improve if behind. If your opponent is check raising some aces up type hands on the turn you really want to unblock that stuff when going for big river bluffs because these are the type of hands that are much more likely to be folded. I don't really see players folding flushes on non-paired boards too often when I play live so in general I think this type of play is pretty unnecessary. I would only use this type of line as an exploit vs very specific player types, in those exact situations this play makes sense but otherwise I think it's a punt.

Yeah, I think flat call the small turn x/r. You have the nut flush draw. TPTK could also maybe be good, but you block his key bluffing card.

You could maybe bet or raise big on a blank river, but not thrilled with that either.

I have remember taking a pot raising the turn with the nut flush draw, but I am sure that opponent did not have a flush. There are situations where you can use the nut flush blocker, but trying to get 2nd or 3rd nuts to fold in generally not a good idea.

Technically you could 3! the turn and shove for twice pot on the river with the nut flush to maximize value. But the whole line looks weird and hard to get someone to fold a monster hand with a suspicious line. Then you inflate everything getting 400xBB in as a bluff.

If it worked, well it needs to work 2/3+ of the time, so that isn't that much confirmation.

At 5/T in vegas i saw a guy raise turn when flush hit and 3x pot jam river with nut flush draw/blocker just like this hand, and he got called down by a very good player with JJ that was just an overpair ott snd rivered top set. Point being i think vs villains capable of this play, they dont overfold and might even overcall, so you can just print when you have it.

Id just call the turn. I know Ax isnt good a ton but its good non zero.

You have odds to call the small turn raise just to draw to the nut flush.

That is funny about the reg in the 5/10 game calling down 3xpot on the river with top set. The thing is there is not any sizing you can use to get someone to fold the 2nd or 3rd nuts, because it the big bet looks like it might be a bluff.

Overbetting with a bluff is generally not a good idea, because it has to work such a high percentage of the time. Solvers recommend overbetting for value or a bluff when you have a big nut advantage. In like UTG versus BB defender, UTG has all the TT+/AK and the BB has almost all the low cards.

I do usually play the nut flush draw strongly on the turn, and maybe bluff the river, but not with the intention of getting a flush to fold.

I saw on a video of a WSOP high roller final table where someone successfully ran a big for late in tournament bluff with the nut flush bluffer on a paired board, and got top pair to fold. He was really representing a boat, but the blocker increased the chance of success. That is the type of way to use the blocker, not to try to get someone to fold second nuts.