Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

For players who are curious about wages and tips for dealing poker, this video popped up on my YouTube page this morning. It's titled as day 17 of 50, so there have to be a bunch more videos by the same guy just like this one, but I haven't watched any of them yet.

Good info but holy cow, this guy is boring as hell. And I'm someone who can talk about dealing with anyone who'll listen. Save yourselves some pain and skip to 3:55 for the meat and potatoes.

lol that's el diesel from 2p2 and there's an entire thread which discusses him

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/108/l...

On what grounds would you permanently stop tipping a dealer?

There is a dealer at my home casino who is an arrogant prick. Makes a ton of mistakes, denies it when corrected, and is rude to the players. I’ve said something to him before in a civil manner and continued to tip him but his attitude never changed. The other day he gave me incorrect change and when I told him, he snapped “I know just give me a chance to get it it!”

I’m thinking about not tipping this dealer anymore but for how long is appropriate?

If you've politely told them their behavior is unacceptable and they continue being a prick, you have my permission as a dealer to stop tipping them. It sounds like they need encouragement to take much needed time off or look into another career.

If it were just a matter of incompatible personalities or "I never win when they deal" that's different, but making mistakes and having attitude when they're pointed out is just bad. I would also talk to a supervisor about it. Not any rando in a suit, but an actual full time manager.

Would not tipping him permanently be appropriate as long as his behavior stays the same? Other players have complained to the floor about him to no avail. In some downs he may not have a chance to be rude so I feel like maybe he’s changed and I can resume tipping him?

Obv you can always tip or no tip as you like.

When to resume tipping him is also your choice. Personally, one down is not likely going to convince me. If it was a single action, performed every hand, and he never did it for a down, I might tip at end of down to show I noticed the correction.

But I can’t think of a single action, done incorrectly every hand, that was previously pointed out to mgmt but not corrected where he would not have been let go. Basically I can’t think of a situation where a single down would convince me.

Maybe if consistently no one was tipping him, maybe I tip to encourage improvement. But ime we have enough non regular folks that I have never seen nobody tipping a dealer.

I will add while I keep a mental list dealers to not tip, that list is broken down to, not this down, not today, not until xxx, and not for awhile. Even though awhile might not be defined, I have never had a never again list. In fact for a never again dealer, I might just take a 29 min walk (I would want him to realize I was specifically avoiding his down).

You're making this way more complicated than it needs to be.

Ask yourself, "Does this person deserve to be tipped?" and move forward appropriately.

Obv if the answer to that question were "yes" then you wouldn't be in here asking if you should give free money to a rude, arrogant prick who has a short fuse and makes lots of mistakes.

See above ..

Do you still tip for a bad haircut?
Do you still tip for bad service at a sit-down restaurant?
Do you tip a sitter who let your kids wreck the house and stay up late?

Do you tip good service different than bad service?

We are saturated with tipping opportunities these days and in many cases we are asked to tip before we even receive the 'service'. Are we lulled into tipping 'just because' and end up being too forgiving?

Is the Dealer in question in a union shop or a shared tip location? Then there's probably not much you can do about it as long as they are satisfied with their check each pay period. So then you have to decide how much you're going to let it bother/change your normal behavior. GL

I don't blame them for the food, just their portion of the job which is checking in occasionally and making sure drinks are filled. 10% for poor service (or 0 if atrocious) 20-30% for excellent.

It seems like the quality of service has gone down incredibly over the last 10-15 years to me. I'll be at a restaraunt that isn't even busy and can't get a refill on a drink. The usually waitress (rather than waiter) will be in the back on her phone the entire time. But probably still gets good tips on average because there are enough simps tipping above and beyond for any woman who's remotely attractive.

Wouldn't the current situation in Texas disprove your theory that timed rake games would kill the lower stakes?

You realize a bunch of TX rooms gave up on time and now rake the pots.

The comment about El dorado shutting down CET poker is not accurate. The deal closed right in the middle of COVID (June 2020). So at best they did decide to thin their rooms by not reopening. But even there I can point to two places they opened new rooms post COVID. Now one has failed and I expect the second to also but CET certainly tried.

I agree that poker is often a loss leader. Also agree that current post El Dorado CET doesn’t “value” poker like post Harrahs CET. What many don’t realize is ElDorado did not really buy out Caesars. Actually bought out Harrahs who bought out Caesars almost 20 years ago. Also Caesars did not ever buy or own ASOP. Again that was Harrahs. So did “Caesars” ever really have a poker passion?

Didn't know I thought they had to charge time to get around the law and pass it off as a club?

How much rake are they charging?

Well since it is blatantly illegal, you are not going to see it advertised. I don’t trust these sketchy imo room. If you see a room advertising no seat rent or no hourly, pretty good bet they are raking. Gotta make the rent somehow.

As to what they pull, I can’t specifically say. I have heard (last year) rakes varied from $6 to $12 per hand.

No. Very different environments.

In Texas a player cannot choose to go play blackjack instead of poker. Also, the lower stake games in Texas play much bigger than almost everywhere else.

I understand and agree with you, but I was using Caesars simply because that was what the company was called before the El Dorado merger.

Not sure how to word this .. but I have a very sad tale about 'self-tipping' that really even wasn't that, it was just plain disturbing along many fronts.

1) Order sandwich via App .. opt to pay cash on pickup
2) Arrive 'some time later' and ticket is still sitting on printer .. no biggie, I'll wait

3) Walk up to register to pay thinking my total was $10.42 .. tell person that I have to pay for an App order
4) Cashier says "Ok" and starts in on the register .. stops .. and asks if I want cheese on it

5) I repeat that it's an App order and they are already making it .. "A number 14"
6) Still puzzled, the manager walks over and shows how to pull it up

7) I had already set $11 on the counter, but then see my name on the screen and $9.42 as the total
8) Cashier snatches up the $11 and puts it in the register and then pauses again

9) Cashier messes with some change and then starts to close the drawer .. I say I gave you $11, I need my $1 back (so I can maybe tip them)
10) Cashier says "That's OK" and continues to close the drawer .. and hands me $0.45

11) I say again .. I gave you $11, I need a $1 back also .. manager once again comes over, opens drawer and gets the $1
12) Cashier grabs a box and walks away

13) Once out of earshot I show the manager the $0.45 and say my total was $9.42 and that the drawer is going to be WAY off today.
14) Manager pauses and looks at me .. then says they don't really worry about the drawer and 'round up' a lot of the time to keep customers moving along.

15) Shocked .. I say "This is a round down, not a round up" and set the $0.45 on the counter and say "Keep it and I'm not so sure that future customers are going to handle this as gently as I have."

Holy smokes .. this is the worst case of incompetence that I've seen since it obviously carried up into the manager beyond the cashier. GL

At that point I just demand a complete refund, cancel the order and go elsewhere.

Subtle brag to justify...many years ago I worked at McD (unlike some I can give exact store locations and dates since it was more than one store). I started on the counter.

Now remember, I am an old fart. Though they certainly existed and even the registers we had, there was no totalling. We had to a) know all the menu prices, know the sales tax (there were cheat sheets available but no one used them once up to speed), total up orders by hand on paper and add sales tax. We also absolutely could not accept tips (that was immediate discharge).

We actually counted our drawer before we started (was supposed to have exactly $75 iirc at start of shift). We were expected to balance +/- within $1. Multiple failures to balance (note the balance was not actually checking the math, only checked did the values entered to the register balance).

Now my mom was and had been for many years a bank teller. She taught us how to stack bills in order AND all facing same side and direction, and how to "count up" change...pennies up to even 5/10 cents, nickels, dimes, qtr, singles, fives. etc. Makes it REAL easy to get change right (though if someone give you some but not exact change you have to think). And she taught us to be careful and accurate.

In all the time I worked counter and drive through (which was WAY harder than today as we did it all ourselves), I was off by more than a nickel exactly one time. I was off by almost $5. But I really wasn't. A customer had left a "tip" by just leaving even though I stopped him. Now someone leaving some change behind or refusing to take it was not odd. We would put pennies on the register in case customer needed. And had a box (not a jar) next to the ketchup packets under the counter. But for $5, I did not want to put there. I asked the mgr what to do. He said, just put in the drawer and he would take care of it.

We ofc he forget and when he balanced I was off by the exact amount of the "tip". While I was closing, he came up and said I needed to sign a missed balance form to document it. I then reminded him of the tip he told me to put in the drawer. And he was "oh, yes, forgot".

Were I to take a mgt job at a McD today, the restaurant would close in a week because 90% of the staff would be fired for incompetence inside a week. I don't go ofter to McD or any fast foor, but I CRINGE everytime. It is AMAZING that basically the only one on shift that can do anything out of the absoluete normal is the mgr. Heck, we had a person (usually experienced counter person) run the bin during rushes and when slow the counter staff just did it. Rant closed.

Why is that better than talking directly to the dealer?

Because employees in any industry are generally not receptive to customers telling them how to do their job better.

Try it at a coffee shop or restaurant. Tell the barista or cook how they could be more efficient with ____ . Then see if you can taste the extra 'flavor' they added to your order.

I'm not there to distract myself from poker by talking to a supervisor who probably won't do crap about it anyway. I used to talk to the DC when a dealer was doing something really bad, but they never actually seemed to care and sometimes would push back.

As a result the easy solution for me is to just not reward their bad behavior by tipping. It's not going to lead to introspection but it will save me money.

That being said, I live in CA where dealers make 15+ an hour before they ever make a dollar in tokes.

Presumably, you'd talk to the dealer first before you consider not tipping them. I'm stating you should take one additional step and talk to their supervisor before going to the final step of never tipping them again.

Uh huh, but this is an industry where the employee expects the customer to subsidize the lion's share of their take home pay.

If you talk to the dealer and the dealer doesn't fix the issue(s), then not tipping is the best step to take. Nothing a supervisor can say (if the supervisor even bothers to say anything) will be taken to heart quite as well as what you're saying by not tipping.