$2/$5 NL 76s in cutoff
I literally just sat down with $1k and I have 7♥6♥ in the CO. everyone folds to UTG +4 and he opens for $20. He's white late 20's to mid 30's and has me covered. I've never seen him/played with him before. I call and SB/BB call.
($80) 6♦6♠A♠: everyone checks to me and I make it $75. Everyone folds except UTG+4
($230) Q♣ UTG+4 checks. I make it $220 and he calls.
($670) 8♠ UTG+4 checks
Hero?
In OP's position, I would always 3-bet this hand preflop, not fold. Why? Because any given random person I haven't seen before has a probability close to 100% of being a fish. Why would I want to miss an opportunity to isolate a fish and either win the pot outright preflop or have an incredibly high chance to play postflop in position against an opponent who is almost certainly not 4betting remotely frequently enough?
Where did the OP mention this villain was a "fish"? But even if he's a fish, what does that even mean? Does he over value weak hands? Does he call down his stack with ace high tryna hit an ace? There are many different types of "fish". In 2024 when most players are more than somewhat competent I would want more info on someone before blindly pressing buttons and 3betting with 7 high because if he calls (which most players do) we're gonna have 7 high on the flop the vast majority of the time. His MP raise should be stronger than a LP raise. I'd rather 3bet with K9s since we start blocking hands like AK and KK.
On the flop, the sizing seems completely fine. You are targeting an ace or a flush draw and have 3 opponents. The odds that one of them has an ace or a flush draw is high. Loose passive fish love to call with random raggy ace hands as well as random suited hands.
Again, he wasn't described as a "loose passive fish". He's a total unknown. Auto-3betting with 67s IMO is just pressing buttons. If that's the style you wanna play, go for it. I prefer to know that 1) he usually folds vs 3bets, 2) he plays more of a fit or fold style post flop (he's not sticky) and 3) (most importantly) his range is wide enough to support it. Not everyone would call pot otf with a FD or weak ace. We also don't have the nuts, he could be slow playing AA or A6s (especially after calling 2 psb's).
Almost none of the people responding posted a modicum of reasoning behind their answers. To those suggesting to fold pre: Why? To those suggesting to bet smaller on flop or turn: Why? To those suggesting to check back river: Why? Just stating what you would do with no reasoning whatsoever and no support for why it's done is pointless.
In OP's position, I would always 3-bet this hand preflop, not fold. Why? Because
Regarding the boldfaced points...
1. I'd be careful assuming anyone's a fish when we just sat down and this is our first hand. I certainly wouldn't put the probability close to 100%.
2. Hero doesn't have 3 opponents. He's heads up with V.
3. We only started $1k effective. We're only $685 deep going to the river. If we bet $200 into $670, hoping to get a crying call, it's pretty gross if V jams for another $485 more.
Think I prefer to 3B pre.
Flop bet size seems way too big. I'd probably just bet 1/3 pot.
When we pot it on flop, I might just check back turn.
As played, just check back river, I think.
So...you want reasoning?
PRE - don't know if this is 9-handed or more/less, but assuming it's 9-handed, then UTG+4 is the LJ / MP. I think 3B'ing a middling SC from the CO, to hopefully get this HU and IP is fine, if the alternative is folding a playable hand, or flat-calling, and risking getting squeezed by the BTN or the blinds, or going four or five ways to the flop and basically playing BINGO.
FLOP - The flop isn't just good for our hand, it's good for our range. I'd think we'd be range-betting here, HU and IP, for a smaller size in a 3B pot, like 1/3 pot.
If we bet 1/3 pot or less, most V's are going to continue with a wider range, and some might even x/r with their Ax combos. When we bet pot, it's unlikely V is calling us without an ace, a flush draw, or some decently strong PP that just isn't ready to release to a single bet, and he's very unlikely to raise.
TURN - Kinda hating the Qc here. V could conceivably have QQ that boats up. Here again, when we bet pot, we're really condensing V's range to a low number of pretty strong hands - AQ, AA (we don't know if V even has a 4B range pre), QQ, and maybe some NFD / combo draws.
RIVER - as played on flop and turn, with the PSB's, and spades coming in, it's hard to see what worse calls if we bet again. The flush draw got there. Is V going to call with KK? Maybe he calls with AQ.
I guess we could bet really small to get called by AQ with the Qs or AK with the Ks, but that seems super-thin, when V could have a lot of flushes, and might occasionally have some boats that didn't feel the need to raise off on earlier streets when hero was betting pot.
The pot is already too big for our hand, and the 1 SPR going to the river makes betting any size less than all in pretty awkward, because of the reverse odds we'll be getting if V decides to check-raise. If we bet $200 into $670, and V jams for another $485, the pot will be $1555, and we'll be getting over 3.2 to 1 on a call.
We're IP. We don't need to worry about checking and V betting huge with value and bluffs. He's checked to us. We can just check back, which is what we should probably do here.
When I said 3! or fold, I mean usually fold. Some people play loose and will 3! everything that is 3! or fold if they can't flat with it. Playing that way is obviously really bad. I don't like the flat call, but it can't be a big mistake.
Where did the OP mention this villain was a "fish"? But even if he's a fish, what does that even mean? Does he over value weak hands? Does he call down his stack with ace high tryna hit an ace? There are many different types of "fish". In 2024 when most players are more than somewhat competent I would want more info on someone before blindly pressing buttons and 3betting with 7 high because if he calls (which most players do) we're gonna have 7 high on the flop the vast majority of the time. His
Maybe you play in a game tougher than and different from any I've ever played in. The 2/5 games I play in are full of fish, and people flatting the 4x RFI after a call from CO out of SB and BB have already indicated with huge probability that they are loose passive fish.
Regarding the boldfaced points...
1. I'd be careful assuming anyone's a fish when we just sat down and this is our first hand. I certainly wouldn't put the probability close to 100%.
2. Hero doesn't have 3 opponents. He's heads up with V.
3. We only started $1k effective. We're only $685 deep going to the river. If we bet $200 into $670, hoping to get a crying call, it's pretty gross if V jams for another $485 more.
So...you want reasoning?
PRE - don't know if this is 9-handed or more/less, but assu
You've misread the hand history. OP is not heads up. Please re-read the hand history, understand it, and post with your new thoughts after that re-evaluation, else any response is kind of a waste of time.
You've misread the hand history. OP is not heads up. Please re-read the hand history, understand it, and post with your new thoughts after that re-evaluation, else any response is kind of a waste of time.
When the villain raised in MP and it was folded to hero, it's heads up unless someone else calls. At that point, hero can't assume he'll be in a multiway hand and is aware that they might be going heads up to the flop.
You should re-read the hand history, the villain was described as a total 100% unknown in a brand new game, not a fish, and not a loose passive fish which you assumed in your response.
You've misread the hand history. OP is not heads up. Please re-read the hand history, understand it, and post with your new thoughts after that re-evaluation, else any response is kind of a waste of time.
You were saying?
Hero is heads up on the flop (going to the turn), not multi-way.
If someone is wasting time with their posts, and needs to re-read the OP, it ain't me.
I would 3b or fold pre, basically just depending on player reads and table vibes, which we unfortunately do not have here. Suited connectors are less valuable in multiway spots where its harder to bluff and to realize your equity. You will also run into overflush, overstraight, and overtrips spots on a not infrequent basis.
When you pot the flop and turn, his range getting to the river is incredibly narrow and can still have traps like AA, A6s, QQ, and mega-draws that complete like KJss. I can't see you getting called by AKo so it really feels like the only hands that call are 65cc (one combo) and AQ. Seems like a nitty check-back is best in this case.
Feels like I need to clarify my earlier post...
Yes, there are four players going to the flop, but two of those are the SB and BB, who were getting a price to call with ATC pre. The blinds might occasionally show up with some random Ax, or some 6x (which hero heavily blocks). But otherwise, they're not very likely to connect with this flop in a big enough way to continue if either the PFR or hero bets anything more than 1/3 pot.
Even if the SB or BB has some weak flush draw, if it isn't to the nut flush, they're probably folding to any reasonable size bet, when the PFR could be trapping with AA on the flop, or possibly have KsXs. How much KsXs are the blinds going to have here? Probably not much, when they flat call pre. Maybe just four combos of KQs-K9s.
If we're hero, and the action checks to us on the flop, it's unlikely either of the blinds has a hand that's going to continue if we bet, but there's a reasonable likelihood the PFR will continue, and he could be trapping. If hero bets and either of the blinds puts in a check-raise, or even just calls, their continuing range is likely to block the PFR's continuing range.
So when action checks to hero on the flop, and hero bets, I'd expect that we'll most likely only get called by one opponent, either the PFR, or one of the players in the blinds. It's very unlikely we'll be going to the turn multi-way, even if we bet small.
As for the rest - I'd expect V to bet the flop with AK or AQ with one spade, but check with AA, most of his KsXs, and possibly with KK/QQ, when multi-way. If V didn't flop a boat with AA, he may have turned one with QQ. If he has KsXs, he makes his hand on the river. V is unlikely to call any river bet with KK, even if he has the Ks in his hand.
There just isn't much in V's range that we can get value from when hero bets pot on flop and turn, unless V has exactly AQ with one spade, which seems unlikely when he check-calls flop.
For all the player who wanna 3bet this pre, are we really 3betting this wide vs a total unknown MP opener?
Not 100% frequency, but definitely 3betting this some against pretty much anyone unless nit that will never pay off. Being scared to 3bet an unknown is pretty awful.
Also, you previous suggestion of playing this if there were more people in the hand is circa 2000’s logic and has been proven incorrect many times over. Suited connectors perform much better heads up and are essentially garbage multiway.
Thanks All for all the feedback/opinions. I checked back on the river and I had to show first. UTG+4 mucked, so it's hard to know if I could've/should've gotten more value.
Honestly, I would just fold preflop. There is no need to play hands like this at 2/5. You could 3! if the situation seems good for that.
I would probably flat call more hands than I would 3!. Would certainly have a flatting range.
He probably had an ace and checked it with the paired board. Could have had AJ/AQ/AK. People, particularly fish, have trouble folding an ace for top pair. I think you could have gone a little smaller, but don't agree at all with a small cbet or check the turn. You just would have won a lot less. I realize there are other scenarios, but you have to try to build the pot. You likely could have gotten called on the river, but you can't really bet with the flush hitting.
Feels like I need to clarify my earlier post...
Yes, there are four players going to the flop, but two of those are the SB and BB, who were getting a price to call with ATC pre. The blinds might occasionally show up with some random Ax, or some 6x (which hero heavily blocks). But otherwise, they're not very likely to connect with this flop in a big enough way to continue if either the PFR or hero bets anything more than 1/3 pot.
Even if the SB or BB has some weak flush draw, if it isn't to the nut
If you think the SB or BB can call with any two cards in this spot, you need to seriously re-evaluate your ranges.