LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
Like usual you ignore almost everything and just pick the 2 things that support your viewpoint.
Lebron had across the board better stats those 2 comparison years, including on defense but the voters overrated Kobe's defense and underrated Lebron's so you just use Defense team voting. And you only look at a single series in each year to pretend that the other 90 games didn't happen
Kobe was superior to Lebron at 22 years old in the regular season and especially the playoffs:
Regular Season at 22 years Old
KOBE........... 28.1.... 1.5 oreb (5.9 rpg)... 5.0 apg... 1.7 spg... 0.6 bpg... 55.2 ts.. 24.5 PER... 0.196 WS/48
LEBRON...... 27.3.... 1.1 oreb (6.7 rpg)... 6.0 apg... 1.6 spg... 0.7 bpg... 55.2 ts.. 24.5 PER... 0.206 WS/48
Playoffs at 22 years Old
KOBE........... 29.4.... 1.8 oreb (7.3 rpg)... 6.1 apg... 1.6 spg... 0.8 bpg... 55.5 ts.. 25.0 PER... 0.260 WS/48
LEBRON...... 25.1.... 1.3 oreb (8.1 rpg)... 8.0 apg... 1.7 spg... 0.5 bpg... 51.6 ts.. 23.9 PER... 0.200 WS/48
I wasn’t comparing LeBron to Jordan. I agree that Jordan was better peak v peak; although it’s much closer than you think.
Really?
From 91' to 93', Jordan three-peated with 2 MVP's, 3 scoring titles and 3 first-team defense - there's no 3-year period of Lebron's career that is close to this... Jordan averaged 41 to three-peat - that's GOAT basketball.... (Jordan's DPOY finishes were 7th, 3rd, and 2nd from 91-93')..
Jordan repeated this caliber from 96-98' with another three-peat, 3 scoring titles and 3 first-team defense (5th, 5th, 4th DPOY)... And similar to the 41 ppg needed to 3-peat in 93', Jordan needed another goat carry-job to three-peat in 98' - the 98' Finals actually tied Jordan's 93' record for percentage of team points scored (38.3%).
Maybe it would be an argument if Lebron had a three-peat plus say, 1 MVP or something, but he only has a repeat sandwiched in between the goat choke and the record loss - that's a joke compared to MJ.. And the stats are in MJ's favor like PER, WS/48, VORP, BPM, PPG, OREB, SPG, BPG, turnovers, usage, ORTG, plus/minus, raptor, etc.. Lebron only has DREB (a positional stat) and APG (ball-dominance and low team assists), and also a small TS edge due to drive-heavy attack and less jumpers/ball movement.
But most importantly, we can take a step back and look at the big picture - Jordan won with just 1 star, while Lebron needed 2 stars but lost by record amount and goat choke... For Lebron to win as 1st option, he needed 2 star teammates (Jordan only needed 1), and sidekicks that could make the Finals without him (Pippen couldn't) and outplay league MVP's like Curry or Dirk (Pippen never outplayed any great player and it's ridiculous to even consider, lol).
So there's no comparison of peaks because Lebron's peak simply doesn't compare to Jordan's.. It isn't anywhere near to "close" as you delude yourself into thinking, or perhaps are just that misguided and actually believe it.
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Lebron was the only player in the league that got roster overhauls each year as GM's conspired league-wide to make media narratives come true:
2020 - The "AD Heist"
2021 - Schroeder, Pope, Drummond, Montrezl Harrell, Marc Gasol, Markieff Morris
2022 - Westbrook, Carmelo, Dwight Howard, Malik Monk, Ariza, Talen Horton-Tucker, Wenyen Gabriel, Kendrick Nunn
2023 - D'Angelo Russell, Jared Vanderbilt, Thomas Bryant, Max Christie, Patrick Beverly, Schroeder
2024 - Rui Hachimura, Taureen Prince, Cam Reddish, Gabe Vincent, Christian Wood, Spencer Dinwiddie
Lebron was gifted every player-type imaginable, yet he disappointed every year except the bubble, such as 2 lotteries, 2 first-round exits, and 4 straight chokes in 4th quarter to get swept in WCF (NOT an accomplishment)...
Derek Fisher called today's league "WWE" because it's no longer about competing and it's just about entertainment, such as easy rules for easy offense, load management, and GM's conspiring to get Bron another ring (shown above).
That you keep calling LeBron a perennial loser even though he has 4 rings and has usually taken his teams deep into the playoffs makes literally no sense.
Ahhh yes, the proverbial "he goes deep every year"
Lebron lost 4 straight 4th quarter leads to get swept by the Nuggets and lose the WCF.
This was considered an ACCOMPLISHMENT and basically another title by the media and fans..
So that's where the misperception happens because obviously it wasn't an accomplishment get annihilated in the WCF.. This is especially true since the team had AD and a roster that was overhauled, improved and tweaked every year since Lebron arrived in LA (see yearly overhauls above).. Excellent players like Spencer Dinwiddie and Christian Wood are BURIED on the bench of this stacked roster... Accordingly, getting blown away by Jokic's one-star team isn't an accomplishment, especially considering Denver's thin roster was exposed against Minnesota, who was exposed by the Mavs, who were exposed by the Celtics.
So Lebron has been a failure since arriving in the West by virtue of a 2nd option chip being sandwiched in between lottery with Ingram and then 4 straight catastrophic losses with AD... And before arriving in the West, Lebron couldn't win the East with homecourt in 09 and 10', so he put the top 3 players in the conference on 1 team.... Yet he still got credit for winning the conference after that.. Of course the 2000's East is the only conference in history that was won by a bunch of 1-star teams like Iverson, Kidd, Dwight and Lebron, so lebron's "decision" to collude occurred in the weakest conference in history.
So the media is just lying and perpetuating a fraud.. It's like a ponzi scheme - new lies are required to keep it going.
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It's easy to forget that Lebron rejected Blatt's ball movement and Spurs-like Princeton offense, and Blatt was fired over it:
ESPN:
"Within days of the start of the past season, James began expressing doubt that Blatt would work out as the Cavs' long-term answer. That was crystallized during a road trip to the West Coast in the second week of the season, when James and Irving began a bit of a tug-of-war over control of the offense. Blatt seemed powerless to control them, and if he tried, it didn't work.
Shortly thereafter, James changed his role in the Cavs' offense and began playing point guard while moving Irving off the ball. In conjunction with the move, the Cavs, naturally, started moving away from the Princeton sets Blatt had installed during the preseason. James nonchalantly told the media he didn't consult Blatt on the changes."
Chicago Tribune:
Windhorst reported long ago that it was James who assembled the Cavs for a players-only meeting right before Blatt’s first training camp and then scrapped Blatt’s Princeton offense.
BBallbreakdown:
"Blatt's beautiful offense that he brought with him from Europe - a ball movement offense with Spurs and Warriors plays - was rejected immediately by Lebron"
So the idea that Lebron could simply use the triangle to win 6 chips is absurd - Phil would've been fired just like Blatt was for trying to run a high team assist and ball movement offense with a ball-dominator.. No high-scoring ball-dominator has EVER run a ball movement and high team assist offense mostly because coaches with ball movement philosophies aren't hired to coach ball-dominators, or are quickly shown the door if they try, as Blatt was.
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I promise you if he played with prime Shaq and Phil Jackson as his coach he would have 3 peated as well.
The triangle requires the perimeter star to take mostly jumpshots, which Lebron has never been anywhere near during his entire career - we showed the jumpshooting volume earlier for Kobe/MJ/Lebron, and it was clear that Lebron's jumpshooting volume and efficiency was nowhere near MJ or Kobe's (a small fraction of their volume with less efficiency).
So no..
Lebron literally got Blatt fired because Blatt was going to run the Princeton offense, which is one of the most famous ball movement systems of all-time (see the quotes and stories above about Lebron rejecting ball movement offense).
Nah, you must've misread of misunderstood that I said that as a hypothetical to make a different point - I wasn't saying they could actually do that.
Saying a ball-dominator can turn into a great off-ball and ball movement player is almost like saying Shaq can turn into a jumpshooter - obviously Luka and Lebron are better jumpshooters than Shaq, but dynasties require GOAT ball movement and jumpshooting ability like Curry, MJ or Kobe - Luka and Lebron can never reach this caliber just like Curry or Kobe might not reach Luka or Lebron's level of ball-domination if they tried..
But why would they want to try in the first place, since it's a losing brand of ball that imposes spot-up roles and weak chemistry with every cast.. Cury and MJ won 73 with Jumpshooting and ball movement, so why would they want to dominate the ball and have weaker fits, chemistry and winning??
The weaker ability to develop chemistry and great teams is why the best ball-dominators of all-time are behind more winning skillsets in the all-time rankings - i.e. the best ball-dominators are behind the best jumpshooters and bigs, and therefore cannot rank higher than 15th all-time.. History shows that it's an inferior skillset.
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And even if LeBron didn’t or couldn’t a prime LeBron and prime Shaq would absolutely decimate people. As you can see by LeBron’s 4 rings you can actually win titles by not only jump shooting.
The historical record tells the story - Shaq was swept 7 straight times to start his career and was a perennial underachiever and loser until Kobe entered his prime.
Similarly, Lebron is also a massive loser with bad brand of ball and this historical record allows us to forecast the future, aka Lebron would go 1 for 4 with Shaq just like he did with Love, AD, or Wade (except the Allen miracle).. Of course he had Kyrie and Bosh as well, so it's insane to think how much help Lebron had, yet only 4 chips and the worst winning frequency of any top 10 candidate.
Kobe was superior to Lebron at 22 years old in the regular season and especially the playoffs:
Now do ages 21 and 23.
You've literally picked the one season of those 3 where Kobe is anywhere near LeBron, and that's despite having 12 months more NBA experience at the same age.
I can't believe we are still talking about Kobe being anywhere near LeBron.
I say this as someone who likes and enjoys watching Kobe a LOT more than LeBron. It's not even close.
lol, if you stack all Kobe's and LeBron's seasons together Lebron has 6 seasons better in WSs than Kobe's best season. LeBron has 10 of the Top 12. Kobe has the bottom 4.
Vorp it's the Top 8 all to LeBron! 13 of the Top 15.
PER. Top 8 to LeBron and 12 of the Top 13.
Why are we even doing this?
Fallguy,
I am not reading all that crap but you need to understand that there is a difference between LeBron being a pain in the ass to work with and coach and LeBron being a bad basketball player that was literally incapable of learning to play off ball.
LeBron’s career 3 point % is nearly a full 2% higher than Kobe’s. A 3 pointer is a jump shot. If there are stats somewhere you can dig up in your crazy person archive for 2 point jump shots I’d be willing to bet LeBron and Kobe have a similar %. This idea that LeBron couldn’t make jump shots, even though Kobe’s game was prettier, is absurd.
And even if he literally couldn’t learn to play off ball because reasons, he still won 3 titles in 5 years which is your criteria for mostly winning so turns out he was pretty good at this basketball thing anyway. Oh yeah plus his stats are light years better than Kobe as fidstar points out so there’s the statistics thing too.
Now do ages 21 and 23.
You've literally picked the one season of those 3 where Kobe is anywhere near LeBron, and that's despite having 12 months more NBA experience at the same age.
I can't believe we are still talking about Kobe being anywhere near LeBron.
I say this as someone who likes and enjoys watching Kobe a LOT more than LeBron. It's not even close.
I didn't pick it - bottomset did - we were marveling about how Kobe dominated the Spurs at 22 years old, while Lebron played worst-ever basketball against them, so bottomset wanted me to post the stats for the whole year instead of just looking at 1 series.. Hence the stats posted above that show Kobe was easily superior based on raw stats, advanced box stats, and of course the grand canyon gap in their play against like competition (Spurs).
And it certainly shouldn't be 'unbelievable' that we're having the Kobe-Lebron debate.. It's warranted because of the evidence, such as Kobe drastically outplaying Lebron against like competition, which includes the 07' Spurs, 08' Celtics, 10' Celtics and 11' Mavs.. This evidence is enhanced by the bird's eye or macro view - Kobe simply 1) achieved better teams, aka 3-peat, and also 2) won with less, such as repeating with a sidekick that was worse than Bosh or Love... Meanwhile, Lebron went 1 for 4 with AD, Love/Kyrie, or Wade/Bosh (except the Allen miracle), so his skillset of lower jumpshooting volume, ball movement and chemistry produces perennial losers (cannot produce great teams).
Fallguy,
you need to understand that there is a difference between LeBron being a pain in the ass to work with and coach and LeBron being a bad basketball player that was literally incapable of learning to play off ball.
Anyone can play off-ball - literally anyone - just go stand in the corner and boom - you're off-ball.
The problem is that a dynasty requires GOAT chemistry and ball movement, so it requires GOAT off-ball ability and jumpshooting from a perimeter 1st option.. So any marginal improvement is Lebron's off-ball game and jumpshooting volume isn't enough for a dynasty - it's a grand canyon between lebron's bad ball movement teams and goat ball movement dynasties..
The goat jumpshooting requirement for a dynasty is why Curry, Jordan, and Kobe had the only dynasties among perimeter players - they're the most skilled jumpshooters ever, so they can play off teammates the best and therefore allow the best ball movement, chemistry and winning.
LeBron’s career 3 point % is nearly a full 2% higher than Kobe’s. A 3 pointer is a jump shot. If there are stats somewhere you can dig up in your crazy person archive for 2 point jump shots I’d be willing to bet LeBron and Kobe have a similar %. This idea that LeBron couldn’t make jump shots, even though Kobe’s game was prettier, is absurd.
The issue is jumpshooting volume and assisted jumpshots, which enables the ball movement and great chemistry required for great teams/dynasties... lebron doesn't have the jumpshooting volume or assisted buckets because he simply isnt a jumpshooter - he's a ball-dominator - a dribbler.. This skillset imposes spot-up roles and isn't capable of the chemistry required for dynasties.
And even if he literally couldn’t learn to play off ball because reasons, he still won 3 titles in 5 years which is your criteria for mostly winning so turns out he was pretty good at this basketball thing anyway. Oh yeah plus his stats are light years better than Kobe as fidstar points out so there’s the statistics thing too.
Nope.. The criteria was producing a great team, as defined by a team winning 3 chips in 5 years (mostly winning over a material period of time).. These great teams require great chemistry, which Lebron cannot produce - that's the issue - his skillset cannot produce the chemistry required for great teams... Accordingly, he produced perennial losers that basically went 1 for 4 regardless of the stars put around him (Allen miracle notwithstanding).
I used the stats argument to refute bottomset's assertion that Lebron had better stats at 22 years old, but better stats doesn't decide who the better 1st option is.
The quotes and articles above on this page (and the eye test) show that Lebron rejected Blatt's Princeton offense and opted to dominate the ball instead because that's his skillset and wheelhouse... So in addition to normal stats like PPG and PER, how a player achieves these stats, aka their skillset must be considered, since this wheelhouse dictates brand of ball, chemistry, and coaching, as required for great teams/dynasties..
Stats for things like chemistry or brand of ball include team assists, and also a player's assisted rate (off-ball play), jumpshooting volume/efficiency, young player development, reductions in teammates' PPG or APG (imposing spot-up roles), and the number of "bad fits"... These factors determine chemistry and brand of ball, which determines team ceiling/Finals record.
Kobe wasn't the 1st option at 22, he had ****ing Shaq, while the stats are pretty close for 22, they aren't for 21/23/24/25/26 but you always try to shrink the picture to the smallest sample size that fits your narrative
Kobe wasn't the 1st option at 22, he had ****ing Shaq, while the stats are pretty close for 22, they aren't for 21/23/24/25/26 but you always try to shrink the picture to the smallest sample size that fits your narrative
Fair point.. Kobe had Shaq, which positively-impacted his efficiency, but it reduced his volume/burden too, so his capacity for stats like PPG and PER is still lower alongside Shaq.
Nonetheless, I've never seen ANYONE shoot 35% and 6 TO's per game in a series, have you?.. It's the worst anyone can play, yet Lebron did this twice in 07' and 08'.. Accordingly, the playoffs puts Kobe over the top at these ages, given the grand canyon in Kobe's elite dominance versus Lebron's worst-ever play.
And it's funny that people say Lebron's Cavs were bad, except they took the 08' Celtics to 7 games despite Lebron playing the worst anyone ever has... They also took the Pistons to 7 games in 06' despite Lebron not dominating - 26.6 and 6.0 APG on 51.6 TS - nothing to write home about.. They also had a "close sweep" against the 07' Spurs despite playing 4 on 5 as Lebron performed worse than anyone ever has (35% and 6 TO's per game is the "woat" standard)..
The reason the Cavs could hang close against top teams from 06' to 08' despite Lebron wetting the bed is because they were actually a really good team that included the East all-star center, HOF coach, and a 22/5/5 all-defense acquisition that was playing better than 1990 Pippen on both sides of the ball - they basically had more help than the 1st-three-peat Bulls, but had to tread water against tough teams because Lebron was playing worst-ever instead of best-ever like MJ.
I used the stats argument to refute bottomset's assertion that Lebron had better stats at 22 years old, but better stats doesn't decide who the better 1st option is.
The quotes and articles above on this page (and the eye test) show that Lebron rejected Blatt's Princeton offense and opted to dominate the ball instead because that's his skillset and wheelhouse... So in addition to normal stats like PPG and PER, how a player achieves these stats, aka their skillset must be considered, since this w
Fallguy,
Can you explain, in as long and as wordy of a post as possible, why LeBron James has played off ball quite effectively with, for example, Dwyane Wade and Kyrie Irving, if he’s completely incapable of playing off ball?
Is this kind of like how some of his championships don’t count so he has never actually won 3 titles in 5 years?
Remember, please use as many words as possible.
It’s also unfortunate how prime LeBron and prime Shaq would be bad together because the lack of zippy ball movement. Kind of like how I guess Kareem was bad since he couldn’t build a dynasty without Magic. They just lack the zippy zips of say a Kebo Brian.
Based on your logic, AD > Duncan
AD beats Duncan in virtually every statistic, including PPG, RPG, BPG, TS, PER, WS/48, BPM, VORP
Imagine having a teammate that's better than Duncan, but missing the play-in and losing catastrophically every year.
Imagine having a teammate that's better than Duncan, but being Jokic's yearly b*tch..
Let that sink in - you fell for a massive fraud - the biggest one in sports history... BUT IT'S OKAAAAY...... because I'm here to walk you through it.
There's more to basketball than stats, and I'm surprised that people can enjoy the game at all without understanding this... Like, why watch something you don't understand... Stats are great, but it's more important HOW A PLAYER ACHIEVES THEIR STATS (skillset and brand of ball), since that dictates the performance of teammates, chemistry, brand of ball, coaching, and the team overall.
So again, NO - lebron cannot win with Shaq, or he can't do better than 1 for 4, since that's what he did with AD (he's actually 1 for 5 with AD so far), Love and Wade (Allen miracle notwithstanding)
Fallguy,
Can you explain, in as long and as wordy of a post as possible, why LeBron James has played off ball quite effectively with, for example, Dwyane Wade and Kyrie Irving, if he’s completely incapable of playing off ball?
Is this kind of like how some of his championships don’t count so he has never actually won 3 titles in 5 years?
Remember, please use as many words as possible.
You're using words like "quite effectively" to describe Lebron's off-ball play, but thousands of players fit that bill - that's nowhere near GOAT off-ball play and jumpshooting, which is required goat ball movement, chemistry and dynasties - "quite effectively" will get you a perennial loser like everyone else, not a goat dynasty like the goat jumpshooters have (Curry, MJ, Kobe).
So again, expert jumpshoting is the best skillset in basketball, since it yields the best ball movement, brand of ball, coaching, chemistry and fits, which allows the most winning and winning with less... By generating the best chemistry to win with the least talent, expert jumpshooters prove to be the best skillset (MJ, Kobe, Curry, Bird), followed by fundamental bigs (Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Duncan, Shaq) and then ball-dominators (Magic, Lebron, Oscar).
It’s also unfortunate how prime LeBron and prime Shaq would be bad together because the lack of zippy ball movement. Kind of like how I guess Kareem was bad since he couldn’t build a dynasty without Magic. They just lack the zippy zips of say a Kebo Brian.
Magic wasn't a high-scoring point guard, aka "ball-dominator" - it's only the high-scoring point guards, aka "ball-dominators" that have low-assist teams like Luka, Lebron, Harden, Westbrook and SGA...
Otoh, the low-scoring point guards like Magic, Haliburton, Nash and Stockton have #1 assist teams every year.
What I'm saying is a doctrine - it's literally how the game of basketball plays... If you're a coach and your best player is a Luka or Lebron-style player, then you should immediately know that you won't have a high ball movement and high-assist team - you should plan for that and take steps to mitigate this impending reality.. Be a defensive coach that requires the #1 defense because you'll need something like this to offset an inferior brand of ball on offense.
Sorry did you ever explain why Reggie Miller one of the greatest off ball players and jump shooters in history doesn’t have more rings than LeBron, a “just ok” off ball player? I’m sure you did and it involved the zippy ball movements but I’d like you to rehash.
Also what’s this disregarding of statistical arguments thing you’ve got going. Didn’t you say you haven’t watched the NBA in 20 years? Are you arguing by basketball osmosis?
Expert jump shooter Tatum lost FMVP to Jaylen Brown and had horrible stats.
Expert jump shooter Tatum was benched by Kerr last 2 games of the Olympics while Bran won Olympic MVP.
Also can you show, very specifically, how you are calculating when someone is a just ok off ball player vs a GOAT level off ball player, and also show in your quantitative analysis how this difference was due to individual skill and not coaching decisions nor team makeup.
Try to be as statistically rigorous as possible. You may use a lot of words but please try to veer away from outright making **** up if at all possible.
Sorry did you ever explain why Reggie Miller one of the greatest off ball players and jump shooters in history doesn’t have more rings than LeBron, a “just ok” off ball player? I’m sure you did and it involved the zippy ball movements but I’d like you to rehash.
Also what’s this disregarding of statistical arguments thing you’ve got going. Didn’t you say you haven’t watched the NBA in 20 years? Are you arguing by basketball osmosis?
Miller never had an all-star teammate, yet made the Finals and many deep runs, and also outplayed Kobe in the Finals
Miller's deep runs with no help makes the case about jumpshooters winning with less, and it shows that he would easily 3-peat with a teammate that was better than Duncan across the board like AD (PPG, RPG, BPG, TS, PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP)
You just don't understand how bad Lebron is to have perennial losers despite the all-star teams that he's formed.. It's a joke - Bird, MJ, or Kobe would win EVERY SINGLE YEAR with his help - they would be 5 for 5 with AD so far, and 4 for 4 with Love or Wade... You just don't seem to realize how bad it is for Lebron to barely win 1 chip with each all-star team.
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