HS Private Games - Best Practices For Handling Cash Winnings
I recently read an older article about Phil Laak covering how he build himself up after going broke early in his career. I found it to be a nice read, so in case someone wants to read it as well, it's this one here ->
Amongst other events, he describes a point when he accumulated enough money that he precautionally stored it at different locations. After reading that, I started to wonder how professional HS live players actually handle the cash aspect. Especially, because they are probably playing in games of which a single buy-in already exceeds what Laak thought needed to be distributed.
Sure, if you're a regular at your local casino, I can imagine that it's very easy to keep track (and get confirmatory documents) of winnings and losses. This then would enable you to simply deposit it in the bank (I. e. if you want to pay taxes on your winnings). But what about those HS guys playing in some juicy private games where all kinds of bets and sidebets for big money take place (I can't find it, but I recall that Dominik Nitzsche mentioned in a video he once walked through Macau to his hotel with 2 (or 4) million dollars in a bag.).
It's hard to imagine that they document all that and then hand it over to their accountant. And simply playing in private games might actually already be illegal, right?.
Does someone have any insights how HS players with access to private games deal with the above aspects? Are people basically doing what Laak did, i. e. avoid the accountant and instead spread it amongst friends and family? I find that also hard to imagine given that were probably talking millions here. Not to mention the whole inflation aspect when holding a significant part of your net worth in cash.
17 Replies
1. Dealing with the 10K CTR issue is completely separate from tax issues. Neither does depositing in bank. It creates a documentation trail of the money but not wins nor losses.
2. You will not get documentation of poker wins/losses from casino
3. In US afaik private poker is legal. Now if it is actually an underground game, that is different.
4. Avoiding paying taxes on illegal activities is a bad idea. Ask a man names Al Capone.
5. Tracking your win/losses difficulty is really no harder at a million than it is at a thousand. Number of games and transactions is the decider. But yes, many actually do document such and hand those documents to their accountant
6. If I was going to hold significant % of net worth in cash I would a) hide multiple places inside my home, b) get one or more bank safety deposit boxes and c) get one or more boxes at casinos and/or put on deposit there. Also might have family (probably kids) hold some for me.
The really high stakes games rarely operate with actual cash. From what I've seen they seem to use a combination of crypto, credit, bank wires, etc.
I don't actually play in those games (yet) but I have played with a fair number of people that do. Even just playing in deep stacked 2/5 or 5/10 games the amount of cash can get to be enough that losing it or becoming a target for a robbery can become a concern.
Anyway I was playing with a guy at the casino one night that just "found" a $5k chip in his bag. Like he had kept his chips in there and came up $5k short when he cashed out one night. $5k wasn't even enough for him to notice it was missing and he found the chip months later. High stakes poker is a different world.
In Kentucky, I'm pretty sure it's illegal to provide "paraphernalia" (chips, table, etc.) -- at least it used to be. Definitely illegal to take a rake. Somehow poker rooms are now legal, but it depends on the local officials (e.g., Moneymaker's was shut down).
In Kentucky, I'm pretty sure it's illegal to provide "paraphernalia" (chips, table, etc.) -- at least it used to be. Definitely illegal to take a rake. Somehow poker rooms are now legal, but it depends on the local officials (e.g., Moneymaker's was shut down).
I was referring to a true private friends game. Where you and 6 friends sit around and play penny ante (or even 5k/10k). No deal r. No house. No rake. Just friends playing poker at home. The hat I believe is legal everywhere in US.
It is not. The laws vary wildly by state, as do their enforcement.
Cash isn’t really that big you can fit like $100k in the pockets of a jacket pretty comfortably. You don’t have to keep your whole bankroll in cash, maybe 5 buyins for the biggest game you play.
A lot of games extend a lot of credit but this often has some predictable outcomes. Someone just burned a series of games around me for $200k total. Why the hosts thought it was smart to extend that guy $200k credit idk but they did. I’ve never played on credit, just cash to buy in cash to buy out. When you play on credit sometimes the host wants to then pay you on credit, or negative marker/positive marker. I’ve heard similar stories of people running up like $100k positive marker and then getting burned by the host. Sometimes games play where you buy in on paper and then you settle up on a specific day that week up or down, but I’ve always just played cash in and cash out.
I agree with the later, but I haven't found any evidence (internet sleuthing) of the former. I regularly spend time in/around SLC, and have to go to Wendover, Nv for poker.
Per google:
Utah has no legal live poker cash games or tournaments.Aug 20, 2024
Maybe it's like medical marijuana in Utah? Technically it exists, but I believe (last I checked 2+ years ago) there is only one dispensary in the state.
Apparently, your google searching is better than mine which was hallucinating. It showed a couple of rooms when I searched.
AzOther1, are you sure that wasn't their AI bot answer? I wouldn't trust that as far as I can throw it.
I can't prove a negative, but BPL, Poker Atlas and google all agree.
Its not illegal to play poker afaik, its illegal to take rake or rake equiv anywhere not explicitly allowed.
As someone who plays HS private games in my experience they all play on credit for 75%+ of the players. Each game has varying rules for when you need to settle. A lot of the time its next day via crypto/bank wire/check/payment apps, usually to ppl who won. But all games operate differently , played in one where you settled monthly same way. The All in Pod guys settle their game once a year. Ppl who pay cash generally expect to be paid when they cash out so games have some cash on hand to pay the players who arent offered book for w/e reason(or their personal choice), however the knowledge of cash being there creates a huge security risk. I honestly dont go to any game that is cash heavy as Im not trying to be the victim of a robbery.
Ive been on the receiving and sending end of some crazy wires over the yrs but if I owe I preferably pay via check deposit. I write them a check, put their bank account # on back of check and sign it then deposit it at their bank. A lot of ppl where I am pay this way and so most of us have accounts at the same national bank. The banks I do business with know I play poker and have no issue if I show up wanting to withdraw mid 5 figures of cash on my way to LV/live series. I will also atm withdraw then deposit cash at the atm if its sub 10k. Never any issues.
I imagine most ppl are doing something similar with reporting income/deducting losses to whatever makes sense for their situation in life.
In a vast majority of the private games i have ever played in I am usually one of the last if not the last player to cash out. More often than not, this is because I know the hosts decently enough and I am socializing with them while cash outs are happening and I trust them implicitly.
The two biggest private games I have ever played in, the house never extended credit. Credit was always between the players, i.e. no one could rebuy without actual money being paid.
This is the way it should be.
Generally the only games that extend house credit to bad players who are risks for repayment are games where they overrake the pot (implicitly or not). Those games may or may not be worth playing, but any rational playing calculation involves the real possibility of not being able to cash out.
One home game I played in was not raked (an hourly fee was paid). I had never had a problem cashing out in this game The host occasionally extended credit to players, but it was rare and for small amounts. Anyway, that night I was the last to cash out. The host told me that he had extended too much credit to two players and he didn't have enough cash on hand. He only had enough to pay me for 1/3rd of what I had.
I immediately made sure that the risk was on him. I made it clear that I didn't care how much he was owed by who. He personally owed me for the rest of my stack.
Luckily I had leverage on him. We knew lots of the same people, many of them family, so if word spread he was shorting me he would be effed. I got paid and all was good.
My words of advice are to never ever play in a private game where payment would ever be questioned. Never. Period. Full Stop.
That said, if you ever do, I would advise to cash out early. Make up an excuse to leave a few hands earlier than everyone else. Get your money and stop playing in those games no matter how profitable.
These things don't really address the initial question. Thanks for sharing anyway.
These things don't really address the initial question. Thanks for sharing anyway.
Giving money to various friends and family is a moronic system to have and opens yourself up to a whole host of problems. Just hide it in various places in your house if you really want to.
I think my response gave a good answer to your question tho. My bank allows me to deposit and withdraw fairly large cash sums and we all settle via wire or check deposits(effectively cash).
I try not to keep much cash on hand as I dont want to be a target. Although it is a pain when I play casino cg and need large sums of cash and are not near a bank
