KK facing a 4-bet

I’d fold and be happy he played AA face up. I don’t think AK does this very often/same thing with QQ.

You've 133 BB pf with KK. You minclicked from BB, a shorty going AI. I would expect a younger, poker-obsessed (I don't have poker-themed ink) V1 to be probably pretty wide here, though ahead of the shorty, and seeing if you'll fold TT-QQ.

Is our question how best to keep V1 around? H calls, it's 325 with 250 back. Or does it look bluffier/more like AK if H just shoves now?

Your assumptions based on tats doesn't jibe with my observations about his prior play. FWIW, earlier in the session I wondered if he was a LAG, because he coldcalled my MP raise from the CO when I had JJ, called a small bet on a mid-st8y flop, xx on a turned Q, and then I check folded when an A rivered...I heard him say quietly to the dealer, "I was planning to bluff and then I hit anyway." However, over the next two hours he was just a tight TAG.

Interesting sizing spot, I think you made it look weak going 50 - easy shove.

Shove.

How long have you palyed with V1 for?

I would of raised more pre, and whatever we do from here's gonna commit the rest of our money anywahy so we may as well just jam. We're at the threshhold where folding is ludicrious unless he's a known nit that hero's played with for hudnreds of hours.

I think PlayBig kinda nails the crux of this problem.

- My read from the post is that OP just has the couple of hours right now, and given that, I agree we can't fold. We shove and we take our poison if he shows up with AA.
- And it's a shove, because if we call, what boards are we really folding to the inevitable flop shove? Perhaps AQJ and not many more...

It's really a "4bet plus" pot - technically 5bet although we can pretty much ignore V2 and your sizing was just a normal squeeze size anyhow (I don't mind sizing down a bit but would have gone to 60ish). It's also BB vs UTG and while the presence of V2 might have induced you do something crazy, in general it's a very tight spot.

I'm not a huge fan of many options here. Your small 4bet might have encouraged him to raise again rather than call, which you'd expect to see happen a lot in position; but then again a 5bet raise UTG Vs BB (or 4bet plus, whatever) is going to be very strong whatever happens. If you jam, are you expecting QQ to call? AK? Does he ever have JJ or A5 or random rubbish here...and do any of them call? The situation is just so extreme that without some tendencies, and he's not described as being out of line, we don't get looked up by worse very often at all.

I'm almost never in the "fold KK" camp ever, but don't hate a fold here. I know we generally don't want to call in spots like this, but could we just call? Do we expect UTG to barrel off on low boards with AK or does he recognise that we are big-pair-heavy and won't fold? Occasionally we hit a Kxx flop as well and stack AA. Not sure I like any option here tbh

The rest of the hand

It's a tough spot. Definitely feels like jam or fold.

I'm almost never folding KK pre, but if we're ever going to fold it, this seems like a reasonable spot to do so.

Explo fold based on his sizing seems good. Ranges are extremely tight anyway due to the positions and protected action, so it can't be too much of a mistake to fold even in theory. It's a rare spot where KK is a better shipping hand than AKs, so I'm not sure I can get away from it in-game. (Maybe, at my best, I'd flip a coin.)

Your initial raise size is fine, if even on the larger size of what you should be going for here. I think some people are failing to understand the fundamental dynamics and quite frankly rules of the game at play here...

Nice fold. Very disciplined. A lot of decent players go broke there.

I think your raise size was fine, maybe arguably a little large if we think V is ever getting out of line. Good to note that he raised to exactly 1/3 his starting stack, enough to know he's never folding, and may be praying for you to jam.

We will never know the true result.

I've seen many hands AA vs KK when Kings either flops a set or draws out with a flush or a straight with 5 cards coming. You mighta doubled up.

I did see the run-out, and I would've been stacked.

I think I sigh shove. His original open is quite small (most people don't want to go 7way with AA). Your minraise over the shorty shove looks like a slightly weakish iso attempt. I mean, never in love facing a 4bet in LLSNL in a tighty vs tighty spot, and I've folded KK 4 times preflop, but in this dynamic I think I'm sigh stacking off.

GcluelessNLnoobG

At 1/3, I'd need a great read that a 5 bet isn't AA. I wouldn't have clicked it back for a 4 bet. Raise more to collect the dead money or call to keep weaker hands in.

Pretty sure I would have got stacked ... if I'd raised more than I could maybe find a fold, but maybe not.

With the almost min. 3bet shove and then the click back "4bet" ... I would assume the original raiser was much wider than normal for even a 4bet, nevermind a 5bet.

This is obviously an absurd fold. To think otherwise is simply being results-oriented because villain happened to have AA this time. Hero's 4bet size is also wonky; should be closer to 70.

Villain is a young dude with poker tattoos and you think he only has AA here? You need to stop seeing those monsters under the bed and get your money in.

I thought I was the only one. If we are folding KK, then we are folding almost everything we 3-bet, which can't be correct without very good reads. This is one of the worst spots to fold KK IMO.

So your read based on tattoos is stronger than a read by someone sitting at the table with him for 2 hours?

So many people fall for red herrings. Psychology 101.

You said he was a TAG, not a nit. The 25 jam might as well be a call here. Your fold assumes that a TAG isn't 4betting anything other than AA, which is obviously wrong.

Theory doesn't care about "red herrings". It's a matter of ranges and EV. If you start folding KK here you are going to bleed EV and get bluffed left right and centre in numerous branches of the game tree.

More like my reads, in reverse order:

1. Has tatoos (with some _poker_ related)
2. Is 30ish white guy
3. Playing fairly tight
4. I HAVE MFing KK preflop.

..also OP didn't say how long V1 had been playing, just V2. Also people can get bad cards for 2 hours and then see QQ or JJ and get super exciting.