LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

You think Dalton Knecht is as good as Pippen. You obviously are smrter than the rest of us.

I'm shocked that players that go and play with the best player in the league who plays on the ball and has maybe the GOAT bball IQ end up with the ball in their hands less (so they assist less) and end up with a higher assist rate because said player sets them up for good scoring opportunities.

Actually, I thought he was 20 or 21 years old... Now I see that he's almost 24 already, so I rescind that statement - he's a lot closer to being as good as he will get than I thought - I guess his older age is why he seemed more filled out in the upper body than I expected - he probably was thinner when he was 20 or 21.

But interestingly, he's still much better at 23 or 24 years old than Pippen, who was a rookie at those ages..

In the 89' ECF, Pippen averaged 9.7 on 40% and didn't play in the closeout Game 6, yet Jordan still nearly beat the Pistons, so the only question is whether Knecht's ability to "take over" and dominate would've been enough to help Jordan get past the Pistons in 89' - he almost certainly helps Jordan get past the Pistons in 1990...

yes, i have THAT little respect for pippen's game - he barely got to 17 ppg in 91' and that was enough for MJ to run the table - this sub-par production simply got inflated because MJ was able to carry that crap to titles, so all of a sudden it don't look like crap when it has a ring on it's finger.

If you give a toddler a basketball, the first thing they will do is start pounding the rock - dominating the ball - it's the easiest way to play, but also the dumbest......

Good players like Love or Bosh don't need anyone to "set them up"... It's extremely low IQ and special education-level understanding to think that good players need to be "set up", as if they're scrubs - that makes no sense.

Only lesser players like Kyle Korver or Shumpert need to be "set up for easy looks", which means that Lebron reduced many good players to this lower caliber - it shows a gutter-level IQ when good players are reduced to disappointing low producers, and that's the story of Lebron's career.

Worthy, Klay, Ginobili, Jamison and many more 3rd options were star players that averaged 20+ as 3rd option, so it's low IQ to reduce your 3rd option to a role player like Lebron did with Love, Bosh, Kuzma, Westbrook and many more - this low IQ reduction of star 3rd options is why he mostly lost with Big 3's, while Duncan or Curry mostly won with less supporting talent because they didn't reduce their star teammates - they would be undefeated if they teamed up with opposing franchise players and formed the type of Big 3's that Lebron did.. We already saw how Curry did with just ONE franchise player (KD) - they were literally unbeatable - that's how Lebron was supposed to be with his Big 3's, but his reduction of teammates and weak chemistry prevented it (low IQ).

To summarize - it's low IQ to not understand what the best brand of ball is (ball movement and high assist teams), and it's a skill deficit to be incapable of executing this superior brand (inability to play off teammates, aka off-ball).. Since Lebron imposes spot-up roles, he never developed a single young player and never had a #1 offense or high-assist team.. How is this high IQ?.. It's literally gutter IQ.. Lebron skillset has weak chemistry, so it needs the most talent and is therefore the NEEDIEST skillset of all-time.. Luka is following in these needy footsteps.. None of this is high IQ of course.

weak brands of ball MATTER because they don't win the attrition battle - they don't wear down defenses, so opponents have more capacity for offense - the story is always how opponents "get hot" against Lebron's teams because they've been resting against his ball-domination... Meanwhile, Lebron's team is worn down from defending zippy ball movement, so they can't hit the broadside of a barn.. Yeah bro, that's super-high IQ, smh.. lol

You know you're the smartest when after 8000 long winded posts you haven't managed to convince 1 person to agree with you.

This is a really good point actually. When I said LeBron played point (forward) what I meant to say was that Kyrie was therefore off-guard (not necessarily off-ball, which you pointed out. Because he was indeed ball dominant. In fact more so than LeBron who ran point.) And this shows that this offense with a point forward can be extremely effective with the right personnel, as proven by the fact they beat the 73 win Warriors. Plus LeBron James’s other 3 championships. So looks like we have direct evidence a versatile point forward can not only win rings but also beat the team with the greatest regular season record of all time. Nice argument fallguy.

Right exactly! The difference in assists is attributed directly to the offensive system being run, and it’s not “bad” to have the greatest offensive forward and point forward of all time on your team. Great argument and I agree.

So Jordan was ball dominant? He had the ball in his hands way more as you said, facilitated more than Pippen the point forward, and scored a lot more than him too. Seems like it can be ok to be ball dominant and still win, under the right circumstances. Good point again fallguy. Right as usual.

Yes that is, in part, why Jordan is the GOAT. Not just because he was an off ball jump shooter. It was his scoring versatility and efficiency. Which is also why LeBron is also in the very top tier and probably the #2 GOAT (imo) and close to Jordan. Kobe, not having the same resume, is quite a bit below these two.

Also it’s great that you looped back around to admitting Jordan also played point and was not strictly an off ball player. Awesome that we are in agreement.

I wasn’t, remember? I was comparing LeBron to Kobe.

Yeah sure. That’s part of the reason that I have him #2 all time instead of #1. But also why I have Kobe far below both because for his first 3 rings he wasn’t even the first option. It was prime Shaquille O’Neal. You’re not confusing Jordan and Kobe are you?

Yes and if he had prime Shaq and Phil Jackson in Cleveland he would have won there as well. I agree a few of his playoff series were disappointing. Which is why peak v peak I don’t quite have him as GOAT (though it’s close).

Right and when we all look up the statistics it’s clear there is minimal correlation of first option assisted fg% and winning. I agree it’s all historical record and statistics show ball dominance (and elite point forwards) can win with the right team makeup.

The dynasties you listed all have elite players, elite coaches, and elite schemes/strategy, which, of course, contributed to winning championships more than assisted field goal %, as proven by historical record and proper statistical analysis. And LeBron, the GOAT point forward, also won several championships when he got the same opportunities. As proven by historical record.

You are correct that some players and skill sets produce weak chemistry and weak teams. But it would not be correct to put LeBron on that list because he has 4 rings and one of his Cavs teams beat the team with the most regular season wins of all time. This is proven by historical record in every galaxy across the multiversal timeline because it actually happened in reality — as I’m sure you’ll agree because the years 2012, 2013, 2016, and 2020 actually happened.

Great job fallguy, you’ve successfully proven using facts and the historical record that elite, versatile point forwards like LeBron James can and do lead dominant teams that win championships.

Can you elaborate on why it’s bad to set players up and give them a high assisted fg %, but also good to set players up and give them a high assisted fg%?

.

"Houston wanted me to be a shooter and watch Barkley or Hakeem post up and that's the reason that I didn't fit in Houston"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmBbmIE_Kxc&t=114s

YouTube

The Rockets wanted me to be 3-point shooter, and that's why I didn't fit - Scottie Pippen | The Jump

^^^ Pippen likens himself to a bad Westbrick fit that can't provide spacing, so he could never fit with Bron

Who said it was good to give teammates a high assisted rate?

It's generally bad unless the player already had a high assisted rate (they already had that level of off-ball play/skillset).

Ultimately, Jordan got 20 ppg out of Pippen and therefore squeezed every possible drop out of that bum, but how much does Pippen average in a spot-up role in Bron-ball?... Fortunately, we already know - he would average 14 on 43%... That's what he did in Houston in a spot-up role just a few months after averaging 20 in a "facilitator" role in the triangle.

Pippen himself stated that he was nothing in a spot-up role (see my paraphrasing and the actual video clip above).

I got a few takers the very first time that I ever posted about how Lebron's ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles that cause low teammate or team assists... They've supported my point of view ever since.

But if the person didn't agree right away, then they won't ever concede - I've been doing this a long time, and I learned years ago that it isn't human nature to concede and you guys will never concede (unless you simply agreed right away with my initial post on the topic).

So I haven't expected a concession in YEARS.. Many years.. But the reason that I can keep posting is because the unfolding events continue to support my claims... My "claims" become the historical record.. 10 years ago, I stated that Lebron's style of play wasn't capable of producing great chemistry or great teams, and for the next 10 years he proceeded to produce bad fits and perennial losers with each team, while also having multiple catastrophic losses with each team despite being in his prime with all-star teammates.

So these unfolding events that continually support my claims allows me to come on here and talk ****, while providing updated statistics that reflect the latest results of his underachieving brand of ball.. So far, Lebron's brand has underachieved favored talent 7 times by losing with the preseason favorite or homecourt, so I'll be on here bragging again when he loses for an 8th time and breaks his own record again, lol.. what a fraud..

Just imagine if Lebron three-peated AND SHUT ME THE F*CK UP.... Even I would laugh hard at myself... However, this can't happen because I knew decades ago that his skillset wasn't capable of great teams - I knew that he would impose spot-up roles and perennial losing with every cast.. That's what the high-scoring point guard skillset, aka "ball-dominator" DOES

How can unfolding events in recent years support your claim when Kobe Bryant legitimately wasn't good enough to even be in the league after age 35 and LeBron has put up 5 more all star level seasons?

Jordan was also effectively retired by age 35 and never did anything close to meaningful after. He probably could have, but he just didn't because he just wasn't that commited to the game.

The last 5 years LeBron has continued to prove the impressiveness of his career, talent, and commitment to the game, not the other way around, and it isn't even close.

You never knew anything other how much you hated this one man and have dedicated your life to trying to justify that hate. Its hilarious.

And no, nothing LeBron could possibly do ever would've changed your mind. You would just find ways to disqualify his achievements to suit your hatred.

Actually LeBron would have moved off-ball like he’s done with Wade and Kyrie at times in the past and be just fine with Pippen at point forward.

Are you ****ing stupid? You’ve said 400 times that all elite dynasty teams have a high assisted fg% rate. With infinite sample size. That’s been your ENTIRE POINT the last 42 essays you’ve written. You literally listed like 10 players and said they were elite because they had assisted fg% 50 to 90% and LeBron was bad because it was under 40%. In order for that to happen someone has to GIVE THEM THE ASSISTS.

So IT’S BAD for LeBron to give teammates an assisted field goal, but IT’S GOOD when other people give assisted field goals. You are out of your ****ing mind and I refuse to believe you’ve ever played basketball before.

What you SHOULD BE arguing is that certain offensive systems with high ball movement and excellent passing facilitate elite scoring versatility, and teams with roster constructions that can enable this (i.e. elite players and coaches that can pull this off) tend to have the potential to be great. Because those offenses are harder to exploit.

This is probably true. But you need BOTH great facilitators and scorers/jump shooters. Just because LeBron is GOAT at playmaking and near GOAT at scoring doesn’t make him bad at basketball because he doesn’t have Steph’s jump shot holy ****. Other skills matter too.

And it has nothing to do with point forwards being bad for team chemistry or one of the greatest players of all time being bad because he was never put in the triangle offense like Kobe. It also doesn’t mean he would lose with prime Shaq you ****ing moron.

In conclusion, holy **** you’re ****ing stupid /propsfeetupondesk

Basketball is really a skinny man's game.. Big dudes and floor-clogging guys with good football physiques like Karl Malone, Lebron, Shaq, Zion, insert football physique - they're massively valuable, but at the highest levels (when compared to the top percentiles), they have and cause limitations on a court that is fixed in length, and a rim that is fixed in height.

However, there's a body-type that is optimal for these measurements, and that proves to be the skinny dudes like MJ, Kobe, Russell, Kareem, Curry, Duncan, etc.. Again, all the dynasties.. These guys are also highly-assisted players for their positions, which improves capacity for ball movement and strategy.. Charles Barkley (football physique) once said that MJ had the perfect basketball physique - I can't find the video but AI confirms it in the previous post.

And sure, Lebron's dunking ability at 39 is impressive, but it's similar to his 07' Finals run in the sense that we know a weak player is doing it - the Spurs exposed that 22 on 36% player won the East (6 TO's), while the Lakers inability to dominate the league with AD confirms that Lebron's stats are nothing more than padding - this is especially true in today's cupcake beginner format where any 4 ppg D1 bum (maybe even me) can drop 17 in a preseason game.

Fun fact. Your post has nothing to do with mine and brings nothing of value.

You're misguided because Lebron's rare efforts at "off-ball" peaked at a 40% assisted rate, and this abnormally-low assisted rate for his position lowers the team's assist capacity compared to teams that have normal assisted rates at the frontcourt positions.. Forwards like Jamison, Karl Malone and AD have had 70-90% assisted rates, while forwards like KD or PG13 have between 50-70% assisted rates.

Accordingly, teams with normal 50-90% assisted rates at the frontcourt positions will have greater capacity for ball movement than a frontcourt that contains a massive ball-dominator/2nd point guard (2nd low-assisted player) with a 32-36% assisted rate (or thereabouts).

Very.

But not at this

Not true.. I said all the dynasties were led by highly-assisted PLAYER, so you misunderstood the point.

If a team has a high-scoring team leader like Curry or Lebron, their assisted rate and playing style matters, since high volumes of dribbling or scoring without getting assisted by teammates isn't 5-man basketball and doesn't wear down the opponent to win the attrition battle..

Excessive dribbling allows a defense to rest, so they have more capacity for offense, while zippy ball movement wears down defenses, so they can't hit the broadside of a barn on offense.. Curry's ball movement wins this attrition battle, while Lebron's ball-domination loses it (and he loses it to ball movement guys like Duncan, Curry, Jokic, or Dirk).

See this is where you're wrong and misunderstand the issue.. Kevin Love doesn't need someone to give him a highly-assisted game - he will have 60% minimum assisted rate even if he's scoring 23-26 ppg... The issue is that Lebron will increase Love's assisted rates beyond this to 75-80%, which reduces Love to a lower player entirely (spot-up shooter), and therefore craters his assists (if he has any)..

And that's the key - Lebron kills passing ability of teammates (reduces their assists and the team's), thus reducing the team's effectiveness and underperforming favored talent 7 times during Lebron's prime.

Obviously, this dynamic of Lebron increasing everyone's assisted rate (imposing spot-up roles) doesn't matter if a teammate is a spot-up shooter already, such as Korver, since Korver doesn't get assists anyway.... But if it's a smart player like Larry Hughes that can get 5 assists, then Lebron's game kills a heady player that could be part of a good system and chemistry.. Unfortunately, Hughes became spot-up shooter, so a would-be "pippen" never got developed..

Ingram was going through the same thing until he escaped the career-killing bron-ball.. The sad part is that it wasn't even a high bar to get 2005 Hughes up one more notch to prime Pippen level (see stats above), and Lebron still couldn't complete this small task because his game imposes spot-up roles and never developed any young players.

Point forwards or point guards - whatever you want to call them - if they're high-scoring, they're terrible for chemistry and require the most talent, but the weak brand still perennially-loses regardless of cast.

Stop it.. If Lebron was goat at playmaking, he would rank higher in APG on the all-time lists, while having a record of teammate development (he has nothing) and he would have #1 offenses (he has none in 21 years).

Given the ridiculous help that Lebron had, he should have many #1 offenses like the all-time APG leader - Magic Johnson - he had many #1 offenses because he was infact the goat playmaker.. He was smart enough not to be a high-scoring point guard, aka "ball-dominator", since they impose spot-up roles (lower teammate and team assists).

That's exactly what I'm arguing but we disagree the type of players that are capable of playing these great ball movement offenses - the presence of a high-scoring point guard, aka ball-dominator on any roster prevents the possibility of playing a ball movement system and immediately kills any roster construction in that direction... And that's why it's never happened - no one ever ran the triangle or any ball movement system with a high-scoring point guard like Luka, Lebron, Westbrook, SGA or Harden.

Ultimately, Lebron's sklilset cannot play in the triangle because Lebron cannot dominate without dominating the ball, so no coach would restrict a ball-dominant player with the triangle.. Again - that's why it's never happened - no one ever ran the triangle or any ball movement system with a high-scoring point guard like Luka, Lebron, Westbrook, SGA or Harden.

We've already said that Lebron is a "1 for 4 guy".... So Lebron would go 1 for 4 with Shaq just like he did with AD, Love, or Wade (except the Allen miracle)..

Of course Lebron also had Bosh and Kyrie, so his record is a literal joke - many of his peers like Bird, Duncan, Curry, Kobe or MJ would be undefeated with his rosters.

Lol at still crying about 'the Allen miracle'

That's absolutely pathetic.

The rest of your post is just hate driven opinions with nothing of value to back it up.

Do you realize that the Lakers lost 4 fourth quarter leads to get swept?.. When has anyone ever lost like that?.. Why is that an accomplishment and not another goat choke?.. It's an unprecedented way to lose, so it's sad that WCF or 1st Round sweeps that occur in unprecedented fashion are now treated like titles and ACCOMPLISHMENTS that add to a goat resume.

So you're wrong about old Lebron - he's been a disaster in the West by virtue of being lottery before AD arrived, the Westbrook lottery debacle, or 2 first round exits and the aforementioned unprecedented "sweep-choke" in the WCF... This is all a disaster and spun by the media into something good, even though he hasn't been able to viably compete in a regular conference undiluted by his collusions.

Again, the double standard is quite visible because Jordan and Kobe had to win titles to add to their goat resume, but LeFraud gets to lose in catastrophic fashion in the 1st Round or WCF - you think this trash as a fossil is a part of his goat case - that's what your post stated above.

But obviously, that isn't a real goat argument.. Prime is what matters and Lebron stunk in his prime compared to MJ or Kobe by virtue of a much lower winning frequency despite more talent such as a Pau-level players at 3rd option (Love, Bosh) - that's pretty pathetic because we know that Kobe or MJ matched Lebron's winning with just Pau or Pippen, so they would be undefeated with an "extra" star teammate and franchise player like what Lebron enjoyed.

You have to understand that Lebron hand-picked the preseason favorite for 6 straight years, and then fell to underdog or loser every year, except the Allen miracle... So it took a miracle for Lebron to avoid underachieving favored talent (losing with the preseason favorite, or falling to underdog).

And everything I say is historical record and public information... In the history of the NBA, the only "dynasties" or "great teams" that mostly won over a 5 year period were led by highly-assisted skillsets, such as expert jumpshooters (Curry's Warriors and MJ's Bulls), or fundamental bigs (Russell's Celtics, Kareem's Lakers, Shaq's Lakers, Duncan's Spurs).

Otoh, history also shows that other skillsets such as high-scoring point guards, aka "ball-dominators" never produced great teams and produced perennial losers with every cast - they cannot play off teammates (low assisted rate), while imposing spot-up roles that cause lower teammate or team assists, and weaker chemistry/teams.

This is the historical and statistical record of how the game of basketball plays - this is just how the game plays and history clearly shows this.

Well Ray Allen made a shot. It went through the basket and it counted. You don't get to pretend it's somehow invalid just because you don't like LeBron James.

At least you got one thing right in that post. You called them Shaq's Lakers.

Kobe Bryant didn't even play for the team that drafted him. He started colluding from before he had even played a single game in the league. The Lakers were the preseason favorites when he got Howard and Nash to go along with Gasol and Artest and that team failed miserably. They also failed to title numerous other years as preseason favourites. And after age 34, he was one of the worst players in the league, period.

And you literally said Steph Curry has a better basketball body than LeBron. That might be a dumber take than your Kobe>LeBron nonsense. Steph Curry is significantly disadvantaged by his body. He overcomes that disadvantage because he is possibly the most skilled player to ever touch a ball.

Sounds a lot like the lakers 2021-22 , tho they were second favorites
But at least Kobe teams reached the playoffs .

nothing to back it up???.... 😮:shocked:😵

.
High-scoring point guards, aka "ball-dominators" impose spot-up roles by lowering their teammates' APG (playmaking) and increasing their assisted rate (play-finishing):

.............................................................APG................... ASSISTED RATE

Wade before Lebron (04'-10'):......... 6.6.............................29.2% <---- links to nba.com data
Wade with... Lebron (11'-14'):'......... 4.7.............................40.3%

Irving before Lebron (12'-14'):......... 5.8.............................31.9%
Irving with... Lebron.. (15-17'):......... 5.3.............................32.7%

Bosh before Lebron (04'-10'):........... 2.2.............................55.8%
Bosh with... Lebron (11'-14'):'........... 1.6.............................71.6%

Love before Lebron (09'-14'):............ 2.5.............................62.7%
Love with...Lebron (15'-18'):............. 2.1.............................78.3%

Mo Will before Lebron (05'-08'):...... 5.7.............................39.2%
Mo Will with... Lebron (09'-10'):....... 4.6.............................47.6%


FYI...

Pippen with... Jordan 91'-93':............ 6.5
Pippen w/out Jordan 94'-95':............ 5.4
Pippen with... Jordan 96'-98':............ 5.8

It's clear that off-ball players or highly-assisted players like MJ and Curry are big assist targets that increase their teammates' assists, thereby increasing the team's assists... Otoh, ball-dominators and low-assisted players like Luka and Lebron reduce everyone's assists so the team has low assists and can't compete viably on the championship level - they have a lottery record on the championship level (22-33 and -86).

Exactly. - for every Kobe or MJ loss, there are multiple "Lebron losses" that are much worse, and Lebron has the most bad losses in history:

* 3 losses with 2 all-star teammates (11', 14', 17')

* 4 losses with 1 all-star teammate (05', 09', 18', 22')

* 4 losses with preseason favorite (11', 14', 15', 21')

* 3 losses as series favorite (09', 10', 11')

* goat choke (2011)

* goat meltdown (2010)

* 4 sweep losses (07', 18', 23', 24')

* 3 record-margin losses (14', 17', 18')

* Sweep loss by losing 4 straight 4th quarter leads (23', 24')

* 4 lotteries (1 in prime in 2019)

* 5 losses in prime with all-star teammate (09', 11', 14', 17', 18')

* 11 losses before the Finals

* 6 losses before the Finals PRE-DECISION (same number as MJ's career)

Ray Allen scored 0 points in game 7 of 2013 finals, what Ray Allen miracle are you talking about?

Game 6 3 pointer? Was that particular painful of a shot to keep bringing it up 11 years later?

I think you guys might be ignoring the fact that fallguy's nonsense has nothing to do with MJ, Kobe, Curry or Lebron, but is entirely about dealing with his own personal trauma from his playing career. He's just projecting himself or whatever attributes he either had or imagines he could have developed onto players like Kobe and MJ. I mean we're talking about a guy that peaked as a low-IQ role player on a pretty good high school team that scored like a total of 4 points in his collegiate career that still talks about the time he beat 1-on-1 some kid that eventually grew up to be an NBA player.

Hence all this nonsense like ball handling skills are bad, being able to create shots for others is bad, but being a great assist target is where it's at - this isn't about MJ or Kobe, it's about himself. Lebron in particular bothers him because he represents almost everything he's not. Size & strength, modern ball-handling skills, court vision and passing. Part of this might be coming from the resentment and jealousy he felt towards some of his star teammates that he thought weren't passing to him enough or were turning him into a spot-up guy. Who knows.