LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
.
Wade has been the player San Antonio identified to be a poor spot-up shooter that can be helped off mercilessly. That has cramped LeBron's space when he drives.. The inverse is also true: the Spurs are shrinking Wade's driving space by helping off LeBron
The Spurs solved the Heat offense by turning Lebron and Wade into spot-up shooters - they did this by doubling off either guy when someone drives to leave them open for spot-ups.. The Spurs obviously perfected this by 2014.
But you cited Steph Curry’s assisted field goal rate and said it was good. Perfect even as it was his MVP season. You can’t also claim this same rate under a LeBron led offense is bad.
It's the increasing of assisted rates that's bad (teammates becoming spot-up shooters alongside Lebron)... Everyone's assisted rates increased alongside Lebron, so their production went down.
For example, people thought Wade sucked when his assisted rate went over 40% in 13' and 14' - this low IQ attempt to turn a slasher like Wade into Steph Curry failed and produced record defeat at the hands of fossils - if Lebron truly had goat basketball ability and IQ, he would've morphed into his MJ or Curry mode (goat jumpshooter mode) and played off Wade instead of trying to turn Wade into Curry and a spot-up shooter, lol... SB Nation has a famous article that actually detailed how the Spurs solved the Heat offense by doing exactly that - turning Lebron and Wade into spot-up shooters - they did this by doubling off either guy to leave the other open (previous post above)...
(btw, notice how Lebron can't morph into MJ or Curry, but MJ or Curry can morph into a high-assist ball-dominator if they want to, and both have done it numerous times).
And Wade getting solved for a record defeat was the BEST CASE scenario for all his teammates because at least Wade was still averaging 20/5/5 in the 13' Finals or 14' ECF... Other stars like Love and Bosh saw their assisted rates increase nearly 40% and become complete role players.. Ditto for guys like Kuzma, Jamison, Kuzma, Mo Williams and others - they all became role players.. This reduction of teammates has caused the most roster underperformance ever, such as 7 losses with preseason favorites or homecourt.
And why does Lebron increase everyone's assisted rate and turn them into spot-up shooter?.. It's because his own assisted rate is abnormally-low, which increases everyone else's - his dribbling and many unassisted buckets leave teammates standing around in spot-up roles with higher assisted rates.. The higher assisted rates and spot-up roles lower teammates' assists, thus yielding lower TEAM assists and a brand that has a lottery record on the championship level (22-33) and worst-ever plus-minus (-86).
Earlier, you said it was bad that James Harden’s assisted fg% is low. You also said this about several other players with low assisted fg%. And you also said it was “good” when players have a high assisted fg%. Zippy ball movement and passing, as you said.
Since it is bad to be low, it would be better if it were increased to make it “good”. This follows from the English word definitions of “good”, “bad”, and “better”.
Above you’re now saying it is bad to increase assisted fg%. I know you’re just playing dumb at this point but this is the most obvious contradiction in logic that anyone in this thread has ever seen.
Fallguy,
I was curious and looked up Anthony Davis’s numbers.
His assisted fg % in the four years before he started to play with LeBron are:
65.3%
71.5
66.2
74.1
In the four years after he started playing with LeBron:
63.2 (championship year)
60.8
65.4
63.8
AD’s assisted field goal rate went down universally since he started playing with LeBron.
This is good right? I just want to make sure because last post you said it was bad when assisted fg% went up. Here it’s the opposite: it went down, so logically it must be good. And I’m sure you are going to quickly admit this — this is going to be a great litmus test to see whether you’re trolling or not.
Fallguy,
Looks like you still aren’t doing the analysis correctly unfortunately. The players assisted fg% are going up under LeBron which you already argued vehemently was good because it’s making them less ball dominant. Zippy ball movement remember?
I’m 50/50 on whether you’re trolling or not now; sometimes it looks like you are honestly trying and are just doing things incorrectly. I think if you analyzed things properly your conclusions would change.
Being that he admits that he doesn't even watch basketball, he's obviously trolling.
One day psychology students will study this thread.
Here is the statement so that you can reply truthfully and honestly in an easy fashion, since it’s right next to my post above, for you and everyone else to clearly see.
AD was 1st option and dictated the offense just as much or more than Lebron, which is why they won - AD had enough help, essentially, so he's irrelevant in this discussion.. Everyone knows it's "AD-ball" when it matters and against the best teams, or just in general.. If you're better than Lebron, then the argument obviously won't apply to you.
But more importantly, when you search for exceptions, you prove the rule... You literally rifle through 100 examples that prove what I said to find a couple that don't.. You aren't arguing effectively by trying to find exceptions without refuting the overall trend itself.
But your exceptions are getting debunked anyway, like the AD example... And the Wade exception was also debunked, since lebron DID increase wade's assisted rate a lot (28 to 44%), and this attempt to turn a slasher like Wade into a Curry-level assisted player was pretty low IQ and rightfully destroyed by the Spurs.. Again, it's the increasing of a good producer's assisted rates away from their normal game and towards spot-up roles that reduces them.. In this case, Lebron should've been the "curry" or "mj" (expert jumpshooter) and played off of Wade instead of trying to turn Wade into the "curry".
However, when we look at Kyrie, we see that his assisted rate barely increased, just like AD... This is because Lebron's sidekicks are actually the 1st option on some level - they're equal in stature by being the "closer" that leads the clutch-time stats, while undertaking the biggest matchups (Curry, Jokic), or simply leading the team in scoring for a playoff run and/or numerous series (Wade, AD, Kyrie)..
Of course, Kyrie's 30% assisted rate created the horrific 2-point guard lineups with Lebron (2 guys with assisted rates in the 30's), which creates a ball-dominant team and destroys team assists .. As you can see, there's no way to make Lebron's game work optimally - it's just inherently suboptimal to tell a big man to start dominating the ball like a point guard, since it creates 2-point guard lineups with Kyrie, or the abnormally-low assisted rate increases everyone else's assisted rate, thus turning Wade, Bosh and company into spot-up shooter.
To summarize, Lebron's ball-dominant skillset and abnormally-low assisted rate increases everyone else's assisted rate (imposes spot-up roles), which craters some sidekicks and everyone from the 3 through 12 spots like Love, Bosh, Jamison, Hughes, Ingram, Kuzma, Westbrook, Clarkson, Dinwiddie, Christian Wood, and TONS more... Lebron is simply the most ball-dominant player that ever started at a frontcourt position.. This "big man ball-dominance" is inherently suboptimal, since the abnormally-low assisted rate increases everyone else's assisted rates (imposes spot-up roles), thus lowering everyone's assists and creating a low-assist TEAM.. These low-assist teams lack the chemistry or brand to compete viably on the championship level and perennially-lose regardless of cast (cannot produce a great team).
AD was 1st option and dictated the offense just as much or more than Lebron, which is why they won - AD had enough help, essentially, so he's irrelevant in this discussion.. Everyone knows it's "AD-ball" when it matters and against the best teams, or just in general.. If you're better than Lebron, then the argument obviously won't apply to you.
But more importantly, when you search for exceptions, you prove the rule... You literally rifle through 100 examples that prove what I said to find a coup
Earlier, you said it was bad that James Harden’s assisted fg% is low. You also said this about several other players with low assisted fg%. And you also said it was “good” when players have a high assisted fg%. Zippy ball movement and passing, as you said.
Since it is bad to be low, it would be better if it were increased to make it “good”. This follows from the English word definitions of “good”, “bad”, and “better”.
Above you̵
You have to understand that no one......... not even a ball-dominator like Lebron or Luka that imposes spot-up roles.............. can turn Harden into Curry...
Harden is simply a ball-dominator that could never have the jumpshooting skill or ability of Curry... If you try to turn Harden or Wade into Curry, you will have the most underachieving fit ever that gets beat by record amount at the hands of fossils.. Harden or Wade's production will decline and the team won't reach full capacity or potential.
For Lebron to get Harden's maximum ability, Lebron must play the MJ or Curry "expert jumpshooter" and "off-ball" role himself (just like Curry or MJ would), thus allowing Harden to play on-ball and achieve his maximum stats - Harden and Lebron both getting elite stats creates an unstoppable team, but if it's only Lebron getting good stats and Harden is just a spot-up shooter, then the team will get annihilated.
Being that he admits that he doesn't even watch basketball, he's obviously trolling.
* In November of 2021, I made Curry top 5 all-time because I saw something from watching highlights - it was clear that Curry had miraculously turned Wiggins into a winning player and had their ball movement magic back - they went on to win the title that year and top 5 for Curry isn't a ridiculous thing anymore.
* In 2022, I predicted the Westbrook acquisition would yield the most underperforming team of all-time - the Lakers proceeded to MISS THE PLAY-IN after being one of the preseason favorites.
* In 2023, I predicted the Lakers would get swept by the Nuggets in the WCF, which no one on this planet predicted - the Nuggets proceeded to shock everyone and sweep the red-hot and revamped Lakers - posters marveled at this here.
* In 2024, I predicted the Lakers would get swept by the Nuggets again
* In 2024, I predicted that Ant was "crusin for a brusin" and would get destroyed by Kyrie even though Ant had just destroyed Joker and everyone thought he was "young MJ" and headed to the Finals
* In 2024, I predicted the Celtics would win in 5 games (here).
I also have a long list of player predictions like saying Ingram was an all-star in 2018 or that Cade wasn't that good before he was picked #1...
This list of predictions is better than 99% of anyone on this forum and I didn't watch a single game.. It was all feel based on what everyone was saying and a few glimpses of post-game highlights..
Then there's the insights into abnormal ball-domination and the inability of certain skillset or even body-types to generate great chemistry or teams... Only a professional analyst and someone that played with all these guys can have this kind of feel and insight.
Thanks for confirming you are definitely trolling.
Post some of your correct prognostications and player predictions, and let's compare
It's easy to talk sh*t without showing your own results
You're the one that doesn't understand usage or ball movement and thinks that high shot volume/burden prevents ball movement
And btw, in addition to examples of your correct prognostications and player predictions, if you could give a couple examples of things that I said that were trolls as well.
When I say that Lebron had an abnormally-low assisted rate, this can't be a troll because it's true - frontcourt players have 50-90% assisted rates and Lebron's is in the 30's (point guard level)... This abnormal ball-dominance and abnormally low assisted rate increases everyone else's assisted rates (imposes spot-up roles), thus lowering everyone's assists and creating a low-assist team.. This is the statistical history and these low ball movement teams lack the chemistry or brand to compete viably on the championship level - they perennially-lose regardless of cast and cannot produce a great team..
There's never been a low-assisted, point guard skillset that was the best player on a dynasty - the only dynasties that mostly won over a material stretch (like 5 years) were led by highly-assisted skillsets like bigs (Russell , Kareem, Duncan, Shaq), or jumpshooters (Curry, MJ).
Which part of this is a troll and untrue?
Lebron's inherently suboptimal brand of ball and imposition of spot-up roles produces weak chemistry that requires arguably the most supporting talent in history (multiple franchise players from opposing teams within the conference - unprecedented dilution of conference and competition).. The worst part is that Lebron's imposition of spot-up roles never developed a single young player, thereby needing ready-made stars.
Could he win with Shaq?? Heck no, because Shaq's in-out style requires a jumpshooter to play off him and an offense/style that Lebron can't play, while Lebron's PNR style doesn't fit Shaq, while both guys need a closer!!!
This horrific fit coupled with Shaq and Lebron's own record of underachieving and catastrophic losses is more than enough evidence to conclude that Lebron might go 1 for 4 with Shaq just like he did with Love, AD, and Wade (except the Allen miracle)... Lebron also had Kyrie and Bosh, so he already had the most help possible and went 1 for 4 regardless of cast.
Your troll is that you say you are a basketball expert and LeBron is the 10th+ GOAT, but don't actually watch him play.
I also like that it’s bad when playing with LeBron increases someone’s assisted fg% (Wade), bad when it decreases someone’s assisted fg% (Anthony Davis), and bad when it stays the same (Kyrie). Won titles in all 3 situations. But still bad.
Also, that thread fallguy linked is hilarious. Some quotes:
He's stuck. He's branded Tatum as an elite jumpshooter, so he needs Boston to win because Luka is the Lebron stand-in and he can then say 'elite jumpshooters beat ball dominators'. But if Dallas wins, it will be because Kyrie is so good that he was able to overcome 'Lebron-Luka ball' and that for Lebron to win, he needs an elite multiple-chip 28ppg 1b level player. Kyrie is a Kobe disciple. Kobe is an MJ proxy. MJ>Lebron. 89 Pippen sucks.
Either way, he gives himself outs no matter the outcome. And we here at ISH know exactly what he's doing yet still give him serious replies. I'm beginning to think 3ball is the sane one here.
Lol you know better than that. He will claim victory no matter the outcome. Whatever he says is a very transparent effort to keep you engaged. Anyone that dedicated to keeping this site active has a stake in it.
Think about all the about-faces he's done. Remember when Steph Curry was the most overrated player ever in June 2021, then the new season starts Oct 2021 and he's top 10 all of a sudden? Then the Warriors win and he uses that to take a victory lap that he was 'right all along' and we're supposed to pretend like the original overrated claim wasn’t one of the dumbest things ever said on this site? Meanwhile he also says this era is a beginner format brand of baskerball, so logically anyone great in this era would be worse than greats of eras he props up( MJs era in particular).
Need more?
Remember when Giannis was a Pippen level bum until he won and then he wasn't? Remember the 'downhill' skillset he's bashed Ant for the last 3 weeks? Doesn't Giannis have the same downhill skilset on top of being the literal opposite of an 'expert jumpshooter' yet overcame not one, but TWO 'expert jumpshooters' in CP3 and Booker to win? Every single point he makes is contradiction to something else and it's hilarious to see unfold..
OP is losing it, literally none of his threads recently make any sense. Dude is playing both sides to every argument he makes and then pats himself on the back like "iM sO sMaRt".
Isn't OP like 45 years old? No shame.
Sound familiar? Assisted fg% is super important, but it’s bad when playing with LeBron enables a teammate’s assisted fg rate to go up. And when you find an example of it going down, that’s also bad. And when it stays the same? Well that’s bad too.
Fallguy argues in every direction with convoluted nonsense and either claims it doesn’t count when you find a hundred counter examples or that both true and false are the same thing. The amount of work he puts into this is incredible. It’s an interesting hobby, that’s for sure.
It's weird to think that there's more than 1 way to win at basketball and you should use a style to suit the players at your disposal to get the best out of them.
Also, that thread fallguy linked is hilarious. Some quotes:
Sound familiar? Assisted fg% is super important, but it’s bad when playing with LeBron enables a teammate’s assisted fg rate to go up. And when you find an example of it going down, that’s also bad. And when it stays the same? Well that’s bad too.
Fallguy argues in every direction with convoluted nonsense and either claims it doesn’t count when you find a hundred counter examples or that both true and false a
That site is much dumber than this site... People on this site generally understand assisted rate and that argument.. You're the exception of course - you're the only one that refutes it... Everyone else on this site understands it and engages me on other stuff.
Before joining Lebron, Bosh already had a healthy assisted rate of 55% and he could achieve 24/12 that way, so he didn't need Lebron to increase his assisted rate to 75% and make him a spot-up shooter... You lost this assisted rate argument and haven't even addressed the assists argument, even though they're directly related - Lebron reduces teammates' assists so the TEAM has low assists.. He reduces their assists because he increased their assisted rate (imposed spot-up role)..
So you didn't address Lebron lowering teammate assists and therefore causing low-assist teams, and you didn't address the zero teammate development in 21 years due to Lebron imposing spot-up roles... How can you defend zero teammate development, bad fits with many players, and a weak brand of ball that underachieved favored rosters 7 times? .. How can you defend this and say he's better than Kobe, Curry, Duncan, Jordan, or even Jokic??... It's absurd..
Lebron doesn't understand what the best brand of ball is even though it's the brand that beats him repeatedly (ball movement), while highly-assisted players like Jokic, Curry and MJ understood what the best brand of ball was and learned to execute it - this allowed them to develop the chemistry to WIN WITH WHAT THEY HAD, aka learning how to win... It took goat chemistry to win with bummy secondary producers like Jamal Murray, Pippen or Klay.. Otoh, Lebron lacked the skillset to develop great chemistry, so he never learned the chemistry required to win with normal casts of 1 franchise player and therefore opted for better casts of 3 franchise players (super-team) - this is talent-based winning (all-star team strategy), as opposed to chemistry development (organic, learning how to win).
There are many ways to win, but some ways have proven to be much more effective than others.
The more effective winning strategies are allowed by some skillsets and prevented by others.. Accordingly, the skillsets that allow the best strategies, chemistry and teammate development/elevation will produce the best teams and winning, so they're the best skillets and best ball players.
So when we look at history, we see that the only "great" teams or dynasties that mostly won over a material stretch of 5 years were led by ball movement and highly-assisted skillsets, such as expert jumpshooters (Curry, MJ), and bigs (Russell, Kareem, Shaq, Duncan)...
Otoh, the high-scoring point guard skillset, aka "ball-dominators" imposed spot-up roles, low ball movement/team assists and perennial losers (cannot produce great teams/chemistry)..
So it's clear that the dribble-happy skillset is the worst skillset because it wins the least.. It's also the neediest skillset that needs the most scoring help, spacing help, rebounding help, athletic alley-oop bigs and rim protection, and top playmakers like Kyrie, D-Lo, Wade, Rondo or Westbrook.. Otoh, expert jumpshooters like Curry or Jordan didn't need much scoring help, rim protection, and less playmaking help with only Derek Fisher, or 5 APG from Pippen.
I also like that it’s bad when playing with LeBron increases someone’s assisted fg% (Wade), bad when it decreases someone’s assisted fg% (Anthony Davis), and bad when it stays the same (Kyrie). Won titles in all 3 situations. But still bad.
You're fully aware that my arguments about Lebron dictating a weak brand of ball apply when he's 1st option - this is obvious and intuitive, so the arguments don't apply to AD, who is often the 1st option, especially when they succeed.
So you're missing how Lebron's skillset is unworkable as a 1st option because it creates 2-point guard lineups with Kyrie, or turns Wade, Bosh, Love and everyone into a spot-up shooter, which is obviously dumb and gets historically-destroyed as it should...
So again, can you see the inherent suboptimal nature of Lebron's game?.. He can't have optimal fits regardless of teammates, unless his teammates are the 1st option like AD... And he's still only 1 for 5 with AD, who is a perfect fit as a PNR big-man, yet you think he could do better with an in-out big like Shaq that puts Lebron off-ball and makes him shoot jumpers.. Remember, the 14' Spurs strategy was to make Lebron shoot spot-ups and it worked to get a record victory... To this idea that he would win many chips with Shaq is absurd and makes no sense - it has to make sense.. History shows that Lebron is a 1 for 4 guy, regardless of cast.
Furthermore, Wade's assists cratered from 7 to 4 alongside Lebron's ball-dominance, while Mj and Kobe didn't reduce teammates' assists because they were great assist targets with high assisted rates.. They would increase Wade's assists, just like they increased Pippen's or Fisher's.
Heck, Wade's superior efficiency alone would make better use of Pippen's touches, so he would get 25 and 9 assists in a rich-man's Pippen role, while Kobe or MJ are off-ball getting 30-40 like they always do.. In addition to superior scoring, Wade had the breakdown handle and elite assist capability that Pippen never had.. Wade's assists cratered from 7 to 4 alongside Lebron, but they would stay at 7 or increase to 8 or 9 alongside MJ.
.
Thank you for finally acknowledging that I refuted your entire argument. Though you need to give people on that other site credit too because at a glance it seems like they were arguing with you about this ball dominance stuff too.
It actually doesn’t take much thought though — something can’t be both “good” and “bad” when it has the value X. It can’t be “bad” when the value of some variable/feature “increases”, “decreases”, AND “stays the same”. This literally violates one of the most fundamental principles of logic: the law of excluded middle. In your case, you are violating it with basketball and this “assisted field goal %” variable. But it could be anything. The fact that, for you, it is good, bad, increasing, decreasing, upside down, and doing cartwheels for any number of arbitrary reasons proves that whatever it is you’re arguing about isn’t connected to that variable at all.
This isn’t a basketball knowledge failure on your part. Unfortunately it’s an intelligence failure. And there’s no way to get around that because no matter what I or anyone else says to you, we can’t make you understand it.
Your troll is that you say you are a basketball expert and LeBron is the 10th+ GOAT, but don't actually watch him play.
I watched Lebron closely from 2004 to 2011.
So I knew his game quite well and now we have the play-by-play stats to match the eye test with the numbers... This allows me to solve his game, as I have.
Ultimately, Lebron doesn't understand what the best brand of ball is even though it's the brand that beats him repeatedly (ball movement).. Meanwhile, highly-assisted players like Jokic, Curry and MJ understood what the best brand of ball was and learned how to execute it - this allowed them to develop the chemistry TO WIN WITH WHAT THEY HAD, aka learning how to win.
People don't understand that it took goat chemistry to win with inconsistent, secondary producers like Jamal Murray, Pippen or Klay.. Otoh, Lebron lacks the skillset to develop great chemistry, so he never learned the chemistry required to win with normal casts of 1 franchise player.. Instead, he opted for better casts of 3 franchise players (super-team) - this is talent-based winning (all-star team strategy), as opposed to learning how to win, which is developing the chemisry to win with normal rosters, aka "organic".... So if a guy never learned how to win, how can he be top 10 all-time?
