OOP to TAG crusher with tots + interesting hole card
1/3 NLHE 9 handed
Table sucked until V1 and V2 sat down and now the buzzards are circling, waiting list to get on our table, V3 just sat down after licking his chops for almost half an hour.
V1 - kid that looks like he must've had a fake ID to get into the casino. VPIPing close to 100%. Buying in for the 500$ max and opening 50-200$ cold each hand. Jamming a lot of flops and just torching money. At this point he's somehow only down one or two BIs because people have tried to bluff him a couple times. He's called his whole stack off with A-high. SB 500$.
V2 - friend of V1 that is almost as bad but more cautious with lower VPIP and much more passive. But bleeding down fast. Calling 30$ pre with QJo OOP type deal. 400$ BB.
V3 - TAG crusher. Plays 5/10 and higher. Understands the game and studies - pretty sure he did runitonce course. He plays full-time for money but there's only 1/3 right now. 800$. BTN.
H is in CO and covers all.
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V3 straddles BTN, V1 and V2 limp, folds to hero in CO who opens K♣ T♦ to 25, all three call. 4-ways 3rd to act.
Flop 100 - K♦ Q♥ 7♦
V1 checks, V2 checks, H checks, V3 bets 50, V1 and V2 fold, Hero calls
Turn 200 - 7♠
H checks, V3 bets 245...
22 Replies
Why are you raising cheese with the crusher on his BTN straddle and two monkeys who are never folding after limping?
Do you have any reads on if "TAG" crusher is going to play his normal game, or not care as much and blast off because it's only 1-3?
Also what his view of H might be and if he's going to overdefend his straddle? (not be so tight, and more laggy)
Also how much do you cover V3 by?
As said, just fold pre. ... I understand you are kind of ahead of V1/V2 (but if they are calling like A8o, it's not) ... but the hand still sucks and betting a K when you hit is going to be problematic. Also V3 can see one showdown and notice your opens on his straddle are very wide (could he have noticed this already?).
Post is kind of meh, why are you checking the flop? I'd guess it's more "I hit top pair, but I opened too wide" and less about actual strategy. Would much rather have bet flop than x/c.
You block the two best flush draws, V3 might bet any pair after it checks to him and he might well be capable of shipping the rest on the river if he's bluffing or has any K.
Also hard to believe you'd x/c flop with 7x instead of just betting. Would probably be an overbluff spot for me if I was V.
I guess fold now or get ready to hero call the rest of the 800 if a diamond or K don't hit the river and he blasts off.
This is a pretty specific bluff line if this guy has really gone through some of the online coaching stuff (Half pot and then overbet turn, I'm pretty sure they are fairly similar here, JL, HH, etc).
But yeah, likely gonna face AI on the river.
I would call here and river against a good player.
Oh, and great check OTF, you have the best relative position vs the fish, and want them to put in more money if possible.
I think it is worth asking why we aren’t shoving turn. Answering that will probably tell us how to proceed.
I think it is worth asking why we aren’t shoving turn. Answering that will probably tell us how to proceed.
V supposed to be good, he's not overvaluing worse ... so shoving only gets called by better, or draws with good equity. Even if he's overbluffing, shoving just means he folds a lot.
Main reason to shove turn is if you think V is bad and will call a lot of draws he shouldn't, but much less likely to shove air on the river. I guess if we think V might be overbluffing but won't overbluff rivers then shoving can be better anyway.
tbh think hes bluffing and id call despite the Td being bad card
am not really a big believer of the turn overbet given the board texture and remaining stacks. usually you see this to set up geometric sizing which isn't really the case here
also i find it hilarious we've gone from has played a wsop event to hes taken a run it once course as a read
Hard to judge how much I should trust your reads. V1 opens cold to $50-$200 every hand and just calls here. If you believe your reads so V3 should be feeling V1 always calls down with A high it would bias V3 to be betting value more and bluffing less.
I just happily overlimp and attempt to get into a cheap pot with these guys in position with any playable piece of cheese (which KTo is). No idea why we are bloating the pot with a hand this marginal with no FE, especially OOP to the crusher.
I'm fine underrepping to catch a blast off with a check/call. Not loving that it is this guy doing the betting though (as he's never bluffing versus the other jokers).
I simply am never in this spot on the turn (OOP to a crusher deep in a bloated pot with a marginal hand). So I have zero experience with it. He prolly doesn't play 77 like this. KK/QQ ain't impossible (attempting to draw in the blaster preflop), although I'm not convinced they bomb the turn (although a bomb does make it easy to play for stacks on the river). We're basically hoping for something like AJdd/JTdd/etc. (RTA: Just realized we block some draws we want him to have, gross). I dunno, sucks to be us I think.
GIavoidspotslikethisatallcostsG
tbh think hes bluffing and id call despite the Td being bad card
am not really a big believer of the turn overbet given the board texture and remaining stacks. usually you see this to set up geometric sizing which isn't really the case here
also i find it hilarious we've gone from has played a wsop event to hes taken a run it once course as a read
I find it hilarious you think I'm talking about the same person
Result:
Spoiler
I fold not liking the spot and having the T♦, dont get a showdown
Do you have any reads on if "TAG" crusher is going to play his normal game, or not care as much and blast off because it's only 1-3?
Also what his view of H might be and if he's going to overdefend his straddle? (not be so tight, and more laggy)
Also how much do you cover V3 by?
As said, just fold pre. ... I understand you are kind of ahead of V1/V2 (but if they are calling like A8o, it's not) ... but the hand still sucks and betting a K when you hit is going to be problematic. Also V3 can see one
I'd say he plays his normal game but trying to iso the two kids, he's very aggressive post and somewhat tight pre. The kind of guy that folds a lot pre and then goes bananas post once an hour or so. He calls IP HU w hands like QJo and PPs, I've seen him call underpairs OOP OTF like 44 on a Q-7-6 deep saying he has IO. I've seen him run huge bluffs too. He x/r me once HU on JTT when I had KK, turn A goes x x and river bricks and he overbet jammed - I folded and he had 55.
Edit- I cover by a lot, more than 2x his stack
He x/r me once HU on JTT when I had KK, turn A goes x x and river bricks and he overbet jammed - I folded and he had 55.
This feels like the stuff I've recently seen on "hungry horse poker" playing "low stakes" for a challenge, where he's making a lot of big bluffs when V's range is (heavily) weighted to one pair hands.
At first glance you'd guess it's terrible, but if everyone folds all the time...
Which makes me think you should close your eyes and x/c down in this hand.
FWIW This is a HHP video where he tries to explain how it works, and how it isn't punting...
...for any of the many hands where he does it, just start watching the challenge playlist.
This is a pretty specific bluff line if this guy has really gone through some of the online coaching stuff (Half pot and then overbet turn, I'm pretty sure they are fairly similar here, JL, HH, etc).
But yeah, likely gonna face AI on the river.
I would call here and river against a good player.
Oh, and great check OTF, you have the best relative position vs the fish, and want them to put in more money if possible.
Even into 3 players?
If he's good, he's paid attention to one of the villains calling off his stack with Ace high and still he's bluffing?
Pre is debatable when the BTN straddle is on. I could see just limping in. If V3 has been waiting to join the game because of V1 and V2, he might check his option a lot, and we get to see a cheap flop in good relative position. When we raise, he may not have any 3B range, so his flat call doesn't necessarily cap him. Even if we limp and he raises, if the whales call, we'll be getting good odds to continue.
As played pre, I think I probably just c-bet this flop, to charge worse pairs and draws to continue. If we check, and see this action of V3 betting and the other two folding, this seems like a good spot and good hand to check-raise.
As played to the turn, I don't think I'm folding, but I'm not loving this spot. Looks like V is setting up for a river jam, and we'll probably have to call it off.
Think I'd ask for a seat change after this hand. We're too far from the whales and too close to the shark.
Even into 3 players?
If he's good, he's paid attention to one of the villains calling off his stack with Ace high and still he's bluffing?
Sure, the fish will tell him what's up, I guess they call with A high, raise anything batter and fold the rest.
When hero calls, he caps his range to TP at best. Funny thing is, V is probably targeting TP with this overbet OTT, figuring OP calls, but can't stand more heat OTR.
IF he is bluffing, of course.
But if he is not bluffing, why bet so big?
FWIW This is a HHP video where he tries to explain how it works, and how it isn't punting...
...for any of the many hands where he does it, just start watching the challenge playlist.
thanks for the link
I've also been watching a lot of those Hungry Horse videos, and thinking about how the strategy could be countered. Hard to say what he'd do here, with KTo, multi-way, in this configuration.
He (Marc Goone) would either check the flop because we have a marginal strength TP, and wet boards like this get stabbed a lot, or he'd c-bet 1/3 pot, because we have a vulnerable top pair, and BTN isn't going to be stabbing often enough when multi-way, and the two EP V's aren't likely to check-raise when we c-bet this board, certainly not x/r very often with worse, either for value or as a bluff.
Given that there's only the BTN left to act when action checks to us, and the BTN isn't all that likely to stab at this board in a multi-way pot, I think he'd likely c-bet more often than check. If he checks, and BTN stabs, he's going to check-raise at least some of the time, depending on how big the bet is when V stabs.
In this instance, when we check, and BTN stabs flop for 1/2 pot, and over-bet barrels turn, the counter strat would be to x/r somewhat light on the flop, or to bluff-catch by calling down. I could see merit in either approach.
When V1 and V2 fold, and we have all the KK, QQ, 77, KQ and even some suited K7/Q7 in our range, it may be fine to x/r the flop, even when V stabs 1/2 pot. If he's truly a TAG crusher, he'll have very few hands that are strong enough to call, since it's unlikely he's flatting pre with QQ+/AK, and may not be flatting with KQ.
But if we do flat call, I think it's a mistake to fold on the board-pairing 7, because what is he repping here?
What 7x combos stab this flop for 1/2 pot? Maybe just 2 or 3 combos of A7hh or K7hh, and maybe Q7cc? What better Kx combos stab for that size? He only has 6 combos of KQ, assuming he doesn't 3B any of them pre. Maybe he bets 1/2 pot with KJhh, but we're chopping with that hand on the turn, unless he makes his flush. He probably doesn't barrel the board-pairing turn very often with KJ.
Maybe he shows up with AKo at some frequency, but that's just 8 combos, and I'm not sure how often he'll keep barreling with all those combos after we flat call the flop and the bottom card pairs on the turn. He probably only barrels with the Ah (blocking our Akhh/A7hh) or Ad in his hand (blocking our NFD's), which is just 4 combos.
So, we're worried about maybe 12 or 13 combos of A7, K7, Q7, KQ, and AKo, assuming he has any AK and KQ in his flatting range pre. We're beating the rest of his range that flat calls pre. If he's playing the Hungry Horse strat, he could have every combo of JT and a ton of flush draws, and possibly a fair bit of total air.
Given that there's only the BTN left to act when action checks to us, and the BTN isn't all that likely to stab at this board in a multi-way pot, I think he'd likely c-bet more often than check. If he checks, and BTN stabs, he's going to check-raise at least some of the time, depending on how big the bet is when V stabs.
Pretty sure that he has talked about this exact situation, and with his position to the fish, he would check. Either the button stabs and the fish call (best outcome), or the button checks, and one of the fish stabs the turn (still pretty good).
Pretty sure that he has talked about this exact situation, and with his position to the fish, he would check. Either the button stabs and the fish call (best outcome), or the button checks, and one of the fish stabs the turn (still pretty good).
He's talked about when he c-bets multi-way. He'll c-bet more when there are fewer opponents left to act, and check more when there are more opponents left to act. On that basis alone, I'd say he'd likely c-bet, not check.
But it's close. Assuming he's raising pre from the CO with KTo, I'm not sure if he would c-bet this flop texture, with just TP, weakish kicker. He might check back for pot control and look to make a delayed c-bet, or raise if one of the fish stab turn, depending on their bet size and the turn card.
None of that happened, though, so we're left to figure out how to counter what V is doing here. If we go with illiterat's premise that V is doing the hungry horse thing, V might have something going on here, but process of elimination makes it more likely to be a draw or pure air than a better value hand.
Regardless, I don't recall seeing HH discuss what to do as hero, on the turn, in a situation comparable to this. I think he would call turn, for the same reasons he likes the line of range betting flop, checking back turn with showdown value, and bluff catching river when IP. Hero's hand has showdown value and is a good bluff catcher here. V is likely to continue betting on a lot of rivers, with a lot of hands.
If we add the reads, give them a reasonable amount of credit for being valid, and use some logic, I think it's even more of a call, not a fold.
