The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

Definitely seems rigged for new accounts, playing for months alot of mtts and the pattern is the same, is not variance, just cant win against bad new players shoving any two, generally they have no stats on spins or mystery royales and are from china/vietnam/russia, allways hitting the magic 5% river. i marked and start avoiding these accounts and the badbeats lowered alot, literally months lossing against 5% so is not just variance, just this specific new players (or maybe house bots), but sometimes is unavoidable with premium hands to not play vs them

This happens on Global Poker too. A lot.

Everiday i play on gg im more convinced they "RNG" is bullshit, with todays tecnology i imagine is not hard to rigg the games in favor of new or very bad players, just a simple script attached and asigned to low vpip players to get punished with badbeats and viceversa, if i can imagine this sistem without any deep knoledge on programing, imagine what they can do to rigg the rng to benefit recs, also house botting could be possible, bots in general we know are plenty in every room, superusers etc etc etc, but my intuiton tells me the worst handicapp to good players would be the rng rigg

Me [AI Guy | Math Guy | Former Semi Pro | Current Fish | Play on GG]

Last week, in 7 sessions, I ran 17,000 bb below EV. Had to take a break.

Human is wired to recognize patterns - even when there is none.

• I was convinced the game was fair when I was winning
  
• I was convinced the game was rigged when I became a fish. -EV in game, roughly +1bb/100 after rakeback
  
  • I would start most sessions with negative 2-3 buy ins. GG wants me to play longer!
    So I recorded all my play for a month - turns out nope, that wasn't actually the case - even though it felt that way while I was recording.
    Also starting taking systemic steps to improve my game since August, and don't see / feel the "GG is out to get me vibe" anymore.
    
  
  
• Can poker room rig the game?
  
  • Easily. The regulation / integrity check is easy to get around. Remember Volkswagen? They simply submit false report. Poker room can just as easily submit false codes | connect different servers for integrity check team etc etc.
    
  
  
• Why wouldn't poker room rig the game?
  
  • If it's desperate enough for short term game. Sure. But rigging it for "action flop" | "fish plot armor" is just dumb. Poker room maximize profits when the edge for better players becomes minimal. You can easily do that with bonus / rakeback without having to do something that can be easily detected by mass data analysis (e.g. statname can easily detect any irregularity from expectation if they wanted to).
    
  
  
  
  
  

You ran 170 buyins below ev? I'm willing to bet my mother's retirement savings, you didn't.

i unfortunately had a point where i was 170 buyins under ev, took me 12 years
now some kid shows up and does it in 7 sessions...
im getting old

you bet correctly. i meant 1700 bb. still 17 buy ins within basically 3 days was quite traumatic =T. especially I'd always used GG's cash out EV in 300bb+ pots and the week's goal was to stop giving away that EV. Promptly GG punish me with -1700 below EV =(. Will try again in the coming weeks [went back to using the function to keep my mind sane]

I mean it really depends how deep they play. I once lost a 2k bb point in omaha when some ******* rivered bigger quads on me.

GG Poker is Destroying the Poker Industry

As the largest poker platform in the world, it is fundamentally unfair. Can you imagine the extent of this disaster? This is not a complaint; it is a fact. GG Poker already has the highest rake in the world, and its dealing is not based on normal random probabilities. Initially, it was uncertain whether GG's probabilities were normal , but ever since GG canceled third-party oversight about two years ago, there has been no regulatory body monitoring it. No institution ensures that it deals cards randomly according to the correct probabilities. After playing millions of hands, I can clearly feel the unfairness in the dealing and can summarize some general patterns (Of course, GG won't make the probabilities one hundred percent, as that would be too obvious and could lead to its downfall). Here are some points for everyone to observe and verify:

1: The insurance mechanisms on GG differ by country, which is the most evident proof of GG's unfair dealing. When you go all-in against an opponent and either you or they are ahead, the player in the lead can purchase insurance.,if the insurance purchased is very high, the probability of the trailing player hitting their outs becomes significantly higher. Even if their winning chance is only around 10%, they are still very likely to hit. You can observe this situation at the tables; it seems that GG hasn't configured the program correctly.

2: When you have an overpair and go all-in against someone with a single pair, if you agree to run it twice, the probability of splitting the pot is significantly higher than normal. You will often see splits; normally, you would have around a 75% chance of winning, but it's common to see both players split the pot. Similar situations occur when the opponent is on a draw and you go all-in, resulting in excessive splits.GG's intention in doing this is to encourage you to purchase insurance; they don't want to see situations where they only earn a small amount in rake, even though they already have the highest rake in the world.

3: This is still about the insurance issue. When you go all-in on the flop and are ahead against an opponent holding AX with two high cards, if you don't purchase insurance, it's very likely that the turn will hit their outs, especially an Ace. In many cases, if you don’t buy insurance and run it just once, it’s even more likely that their cards will come out, because not purchasing insurance is not favored by GG.

4: When you have been winning for several consecutive days, GG will recognize this and often deal you various unfavorable hands that make it hard to escape and lead to losses. Experiencing consecutive bad beats and large hands clashing can throw off your mindset and make you feel frustrated. This is a common tactic of the GG system; dealing unfavorable hands is a significant characteristic of GG, and it certainly does not align with normal probabilities. The frequency of this happening is much higher than on fair platforms like PokerStars. GG only makes more money from rake when big pots are created, and it is already the platform with the highest rake in the world.

5: GG Poker has introduced a feature called Poker Bunny that allows you to see your cards after folding. This feature is purely a tactic to entice players to enter the pot and has no meaningful benefit to the players.Every time you were originally in the pot, but then you fold and open Bunny, you almost always see yourself hitting a hand, which happens at an incredibly high rate (of course, it can't be 100%, as GG isn't that foolish, but you can observe the probabilities). However, when you enter the pot yourself, your hitting rate is significantly lower than what you see with Bunny. GG's intention behind this is to lure you into the pot to increase their revenue, which can be described as despicable and shameless.

6: GG's dealing is heavily manipulated, especially at fast tables, where there are numerous instances of big hands clashing and bets frequently reversing. This is all aimed at creating larger pots, which is particularly frustrating.

7: Additionally, it seems that only Chinese mainland players are allowed to purchase insurance after going all-in, while players from other countries see a cashout button, similar to PokerStars. When Chinese players do not buy insurance, their probability of experiencing bad beats increases significantly. It appears that GG treats Chinese players as if they were fools, showing a degree of discrimination against them.

Additionally, the situations mentioned above are not the same as the old saying about "only remembering losses and not wins." I have observed similar results with other players as well, and everyone can take some time to observe this for themselves.
More importantly, this probability is not equal; the game will adjust your likelihood of losing based on your previous win rate to balance your wins and losses. You can win, but not too much.

GG Poker has become increasingly manipulative, and anyone who plays should be able to see various unfavorable hands and frequent badbeats happening far more often than normal probabilities would suggest. Why can GG act so brazenly? Because they have effective advertising and are currently the largest platform in the world with no regulatory oversight. Poker is also considered a gray area; as long as their dealing probabilities are not at 100%, you can't accuse them of cheating. They can simply claim it's a matter of probability, and you have no way to verify it. If this continues, GG will harm the poker industry, leading to very negative sentiments toward the game and affecting players' lives. I hope all poker players can unite to either force GG out or make it truly fair!

My English is not very good, so all the content was translated using AI and modified a bit. I hope everyone can understand and grasp the general idea.

Wish everyone good luck！！！

Here are some images for reference. I apologize for the messiness!

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Good stuff .

I talked with a person who worked in high-position in this industry and he said that he is convinced that most other sites have taken similar actions with their dealing "randomness" , basically favoring fish and weaker regs to keep their games running at highest occupancy rate in all stake levels. Personally I don't feel like I have similar fair changes playing these sites as when playing apps or live-poker. My recent 1M hands at those sites sample supports this theory (180 buy-ins below EV).

This is the original Chinese text.

Thank you for sharing. GG is really disgusting in this regard, and it's particularly obvious, relying heavily on its strong backing.

GG Poker is done for after OP'sp proof of rigging

Dude can you change the font to a normal colour so people don't need sunglasses to read your post?

Is this part true?

I seen someone asking the same question a while back in the GG thread and they never got a response.

by PartyScout k

Hello, can someone tell me about the RNG method on GG?

I checked the website details and found a test certificate for a testing period back in 2021. Nothing since. I may be wrong but i thought a requirement for annual testing is required to operate in the UK Gaming market?

https://ggpoker.co.uk/random-number-generator/

ggpoker

Random Number Generator | GGPoker

If this fine and common pratice these days i'd be fairly concerned as a regular online player.

The latest RNG test I can find is from 2022:

I think there is no reason to think they would not be corrupt just as much as everything else in this world.

Those companies that run poker make way more money from the slots why would they not "optimize" their poker?

ipoker, party, wpn and ignition are the not yet dark side sites , others use tools to simply control whose going to win and how much - with party and ipoker they have a bot issue though and quite a few guys who are insider superusers .

i cant go too deep into this bcz i have a source i need to protect.

but online poker is (since GG took over) something very different players think it is.

Its really scary.

Basically methology is similar as with sportsbetting - (when winning player wants to bet big on most bookers they cut him off and put him to be capped to be able to bet very small)

In poker it would just be scandalous to directly say "your not allowed to play your winning player" which is why they adjust how you will perform vs the field.

All these mblmb labs etc. is just bought bullshit to protect the business.

This has been argued since the inception of online poker. It usually comes down to the most obvious conclusion, that from the operators perspective that it makes no sense to cheat the game. You already have a money tree running fair games so why would you put that business in jeopardy. The counter is that we have seen a number of examples over the years in poker where greed is more powerful than rationality.

I'm more curious as to why GG wouldn't be doing the bare basics of having the certificate up to date for the site. I'd say its more an oversight on not having it uploaded online as I think it would put them in big trouble with the regulators in some of the markets they offer games.

It appears that you have some concerns regarding GGPoker, particularly about its reputation and the issue of bots on the platform. However, it's crucial to focus on facts to ensure credibility when sharing information.

To address the first point: the "rabbit hunt" feature on GGPoker is not fraudulent. You can easily test this with a friend in a "Rush and Cash" game mode. If both of you are in the same hand and, for example, both fold on the flop and then activate the rabbit hunt feature, you’ll see that the same cards are displayed to both players. This demonstrates that the rabbit hunt feature does not reveal only the cards that would be beneficial to a player, but rather the cards are displayed consistently and fairly for all players involved.

seeing a screenshot of AK beating AQ seals it for me... online poker is rigged!

This does not prove what you claim it proves. It does prove that they do not send different to different players. It does not prove they do not adjust the the hand to create the effect.

actually with a true wr of 4,2 there is a 7% chance of running below 2,4bb/100 with a std.dev of 120 which is normal for not-nits in 6max in nlhe
its unlucky but nowhere near impossible, people still underestimate variance so so much

Yes, it's true. GG has no regulatory authorities overseeing it.

Bro, it’s true that everyone sees the same cards; otherwise, people would easily spot the cheating. However, as I mentioned earlier, when you participate in a pot and then fold, GG's programming is designed to display the cards based on that. We can think about this more deeply: people participate and then fold, and this is what drives your desire to play. You can observe this by playing GG yourself. I've played millions of hands on GG and have been observing for a long time.
If you pay close attention while playing, you'll notice that the rate of hitting the board after entering the pot is completely different from the rate of hitting after folding and then activating the rabbit hunt feature.

Bro, it’s because GG is particularly greedy. They do great advertising and have a large market. They can let you win, but they won’t let you win too much, or else recreational players will leave. They also make the games very intense, exploiting human weaknesses. As long as the pots are big and people play more, their rake will increase. Plus, their backend dealing is unregulated, so there’s no evidence, and they won’t be in a disadvantaged position.