LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

Obviously, the Lakers will win the title this year, unless AD gets hurt.

Nothing else should stop them... They have a roster that has been overhauled 5 times and tweaked to perfection for 5 years courtesy of GM's league-wide trying to fulfill Klutch narratives.. This is why most people say that today's NBA is for entertainment like WWE - i.e. let's all plan to get Lebron #5 and 6 just lik the WWE plans out a wrestler's fights and path to the title.

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Preseason Favorite

Lebron.... 2011-2016 (6 years)
Durant.... 2017-2019 (3 years)

^^^ 6 straight years of favored rosters is unprecedented, and the unprecedented advantage of Lebron's "decision" can only be countered by another unprecedented advantage of KD joining Curry.

Yet KD's rings "don't count" due to this unprecedented advantage, while Lebron's do despite enjoying an unprecedented advantage for twice as long... It's a clear double-standard and further evidence of the fraud.

Lebron was also the preseason favorite in 2020 and 21', so that means the suboptimal "bron-ball" skillset perennially-underachieved favored talent, such as losing with the preseason or homecourt 7 times.

AD better than Shaq?

You said AD was a bird fed loser:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthr...)

Looks like you are a walking contradiction. Everything is made up. All arguments are flip flops.

2021 you said Curry was most overrated player of all time.

2021 you also said Curry top 5 player all time.

Meanwhile never watching him play since you haven't watched NBA games since 2011.

Looks like your methods of analysis don't work.

Looks like my "no-eye-test" analysis works quite well because it determined that Curry was better than Lebron and appropriately ranked in the top 10 long before anyone dreamed of doing so - back in 2021 - no one put Curry in the top 10 before their title with Wiggins.

But you're missing the fact that Curry proving me wrong and completely flip-flopping haters like me is the best evidence that he's a goat-level player, while Lebron never flip-flops his haters and has never proved me wrong on anything I've ever said about him.. Instead, my claims continue to be supported by the unfolding events of his perennial losing with each team and also underperforming favored rosters, such as losing with preseason favorites or homecourt 7 times.

Btw, the reason that MJ can discount Russell's ring count is because he can say that he won the most in the more current and tougher player pool/era, while Lebron cannot discount the ring counts of prior eras because he didn't conquer his player pool/era - Duncan or Kobe won more, while Curry won the same as Lebron but produced the best teams ever and changed the game.. Otoh, having many bad losses every year and never producing a great team, while everyone and their mother repeatedly beats you doesn't make it "your era".

Curious if fallguy is going to follow up on this or he’s going to run away with his tail between his legs.

I legitimately don’t know how to respond to this except to… let you know (???) that there are not infinite possessions in a basketball game.

Perhaps it will be best illustrated by another example:

Michael Jordan rejoined the Bulls full-time in the ‘95-‘96 season. He averaged 4.3 assists per game.

The Bulls averaged 24 assists per game in ‘94-‘95. They averaged 24.8 in ‘95-‘96 (not first in the league, in case you were curious, despite the expert jump shooter with high assisted fg% rejoining the team).

If you know how to do subtraction, this is an increase in +0.8 assists per game. But how is that possible, you may ask? Michael Jordan added 4.3 assists per game when he returned.

Well, dumbass, it’s because the rest of the team’s average assists went down. Just like you claim only happens with ball dominators like LeBron and Luka. That’s because there are not an infinite number of ****ing possessions so the other players have fewer opportunities to make assists.

Oh look your main example for zippy zip expert jump shooter high assisted fg% ball movement is proven wrong as well with actual data. And LeBron improved his teams’ assist rate more in every. single. example where he changed teams. Historical record with infinite sample size, as I think you’d put it.

Looks like your entire argument has been flushed down the toilet along with the rest of the bullshit you make up. Better start wearing diapers fallguy because a child like intelligence at least knows how to do ****ing subtraction and take an average.

And before fallguy tries to come in here and gaslight everyone and claim he never said that or we misunderstood, yes Michael Jordan did play 17 games in ‘94-‘95 so the calculation isn’t perfect. It’s an approximation. But guess what: Michael Jordan played exactly zero games in ‘93-‘94 and the Bulls assist rate was even higher at 25.6.

There goes fallguy’s last steaming turd of an argument right down the drain. I honestly can’t believe he has spent so much time arguing this. What a sad, sad state of affairs. I’d /propfeetupondesk but I feel too much second hand embarrassment so I just need to log out.

I'm not sure if my favourite out of the last handful of posts is fallguy saying he is the bestest at the math and then not knowing that winning 3 out of 6 chips when your team is the favourite pre-season is actually pretty good, or that he can somehow judge how good a guy is defensively when he doesn't watch games.

Mr fg.

You seem to like this pre-season favourite thing.

What are your thoughts of Kobe being only 4-3 when pre-season favourites?

BS.... It's literally horrible compared to the GOAT standard.

And it's even worse than Kobe... It's also worse to lose after teaming up with opponents, let alone lose most of the time.

You don't seem to accept that Lebron mostly lost after he got help, while MJ mostly won, despite 1 less star teammate than Lebron - so it's a completely fake debate.

Lebron has far more bad losses than Kobe based on losses with all-star teammates, sweep losses, losses with preseason favorite, losses with homecourt, record losses, choke or meltdown losses, and locked up in a loss.

No one has more bad losses than Lebron because he's the biggest ball-dominator ever, so he produces the worst chemistry, teammate development and strategy/coaching..

I'm not going to engage on what you posted above because it like saying 2 + 2 = 5.. It's special education-level wrong and incompetence... It's an embarrassing misunderstanding of how anything works, let alone basketball

Go back to school and then we can have an intelligent discussion

Until then, my last response to you above cleared up your misunderstanding, but if you choose to ignore it and say 2+2=5, then we're done

Better than Lebron...

and let's face it - both Kobe and Lebron are nowhere near MJ...

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ASSISTS AS A STARTER WITH AND WITHOUT MJ:

1993' BJ..................... 4.0
94-96' BJ.................... 3.9 (no MJ)

90-93' Pippen........... 6.2
94-95' Pippen........... 5.4 (no MJ)
96-98' Pippen........... 5.8
99-03' Pippen........... 5.1 (no MJ)

89-93' Horace........... 2.5
94-02' Horace........... 2.3 (no MJ)

90-95' Rodman......... 1.7 (no MJ)
96-98' Rodman......... 2.8
99-00' Rodman......... 1.3 (no MJ)

93-94' Longley.......... 1.2 (no MJ)
96-98' Longley.......... 2.4
99-00' Longley.......... 1.1 (no MJ)

80-87' Cartwright..... 1.6 (no MJ)
89-94' Cartwright..... 1.5

ASSISTS AS A STARTER WITH AND WITHOUT LEBRON:

12-14' Kyrie............... 5.8 (no Lebron)
15-17' Kyrie............... 5.3
18-24' Kyrie............... 5.8 (no Lebron)

04-10' Bosh............... 2.2 (no Lebron)
11-14' Bosh............... 1.6
15-16' Bosh............... 2.3 (no Lebron)

11-14' Love................ 3.0 (no Lebron)
15-18' Love................ 2.1
19-21' Love................ 2.8 (no Lebron)

05-08' Mo................... 5.7 (no Lebron)
09-10' Mo................... 4.6
11-13' Mo................... 5.3 (no Lebron)

04-10' Wade.............. 6.6 (no Lebron)
11-14' Wade.............. 4.7
15-16' Wade.............. 4.7 (no Lebron)

As the goat assist target and off-ball player, MJ increased every starter's assists from both 3-peat teams, except Cartwright declined from 1.6 to 1.5... The post-injury Ron Harper averaged 2.0 assists in 95' and then 2.5 to 2.8 alongside MJ for the 3-peat.. Meanwhile, Paxson never started alongside anyone other than Jordan, and his assists grew during that tenure.

In contrast to MJ's off-ball game increasing everyone's assists, Lebron's ball-dominance decreased every cast member's assists, so his team was never a high-assist team like the teams that beat him.. The common thread all of Lebron's playoff losses for the last 10 years are deficits in team assists, usually massive deficits.
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Fallguy laying the groundwork here for his June 2025 “I iS So SmAht” post series. This checks off the Lakers. From now until June, he’s going to randomly sprinkle predictions in his posts. Probably Boston a few times, Dallas, OKC. Maybe Minnesota. People will think nothing of it because they’re just random fallguy post.

But then, voila, one of them is going to turn out correct and then he can make a bunch of posts across internet basketball forums linking the one post (of 15) that ended up being right. And then he can spend 10 posts talking about how he predicts basketball results accurately 99% of the time simply through the power of his mind without even watching the game to feed his ego. Like a snake oil salesman who’s just really bad at math.

I don't need predictions because I post evidence and stats, as shown above.

You were proven wrong when you tried to equate team assists to teammate assists.. That's when you lost..

Lebron simply reduces teammate's assists, as shown above, while Jordan increases everyone's assists, since he's a great assist target (highly-assisted player, expert jumpshooter)

Btw Matt, I have no doubt that you didn't finish school and were a bad student.. I would never wager you on this based on the lack of integrity you showed in our debates.

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ASSISTS AS A STARTER WITH AND WITHOUT MJ:

1993' BJ..................... 4.0
94-96' BJ.................... 3.9 (no MJ)

90-93' Pippen........... 6.2
94-95' Pippen........... 5.4 (no MJ)
96-98' Pippen........... 5.8
99-03' Pippen........... 5.1 (no MJ)

89-93' Horace........... 2.5
94-02' Horace........... 2.3 (no MJ)

90-95' Rodman......... 1.7 (no MJ)
96-98' Rodman......... 2.8
99-00' Rodman......... 1.3 (no MJ)

93-94' Longley.......... 1.2 (no MJ)
96-98' Longley.......... 2.4
99-00' Longley.......... 1.1 (no MJ)

80-87' Cartwright..... 1.6 (no MJ)
89-94' Cartwright..... 1.5

ASSISTS AS A STARTER WITH AND WITHOUT LEBRON:

12-14' Kyrie............... 5.8 (no Lebron)
15-17' Kyrie............... 5.3
18-24' Kyrie............... 5.8 (no Lebron)

04-10' Bosh............... 2.2 (no Lebron)
11-14' Bosh............... 1.6
15-16' Bosh............... 2.3 (no Lebron)

11-14' Love................ 3.0 (no Lebron)
15-18' Love................ 2.1
19-21' Love................ 2.8 (no Lebron)

05-08' Mo................... 5.7 (no Lebron)
09-10' Mo................... 4.6
11-13' Mo................... 5.3 (no Lebron)

04-10' Wade............... 6.6 (no Lebron)
11-14' Wade............... 4.7
15-16' Wade............... 4.7 (no Lebron)

19-22' D-Lo................. 6.7 (no Lebron)
23-25' D-Lo................. 6.2

09-10' Chalmers........ 4.2 (no Lebron)
11-14' Chalmers........ 3.6

99-04' Snow................ 6.9 (no Lebron)
11-14' Snow................ 4.1

01-05' Hughes........... 3.8 (no Lebron)
06-08' Hughes........... 3.3

2018 Ingram.............. 3.9 (no Lebron)
2019 Ingram.............. 3.0
20-25' Ingram............ 5.2 (no Lebron

2019 Kuzma............... 2.5
22-25' Kuzma............. 3.8 (no Lebron)

2018 Ball..................... 7.2 (no Lebron)
2018 Ball..................... 5.4
20-22' Ball................... 6.1 (no Lebron)

Jamison also saw lower assists, along with JR Smith, Derrick Rose, IT, KCP, Westbrook, Clarkson and MANY MORE.

Dellevadova and Delonte increased slightly due to getting a lot more playing time alongside Lebron than before, and they're the most prominent exceptions.. Other guys that average low assists barely saw any change like Tristan, Zydrunas, or Varejao.

To summarize - Lebron lowered all his cast members' assists, with almost no exceptions.. Otoh, MJ increased every starter's assists from both 3-peat teams, except Cartwright declined from 1.6 to 1.5... The post-injury Ron Harper averaged 2.0 assists in 95' and then 2.5 to 2.8 for the 3-peat alongside MJ... Meanwhile, Paxson never started alongside anyone other than Jordan, and his assists grew during that tenure.

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Recent Thread Cliffs

High-scoring point guard skillsets, aka "ball-dominators" score a lot of points unassisted by teammates and dribbling around on their own, which forces teammates into higher assisted rates (spot-up roles) - these spot-up roles reduce teammates' assists, so the TEAM has low assists and low team ceiling..

The stats in the previous post show how a ball-dominator like Lebron lowers every cast member's assists, thus preventing a high-assist team and also being susceptible to defeat at the hands of high-assist teams (Spurs, Warriors, Nuggets, Mavs, Magic).

Otoh, jumpshooters and bigs score many buckets while being assisted by teammates, so teammates aren't forced into spot-up roles and get higher assists along with the team - everyone is playing off each other and the team has good fits, chemistry and team ceiling.

By virtue of producing better chemistry, strategy/coaching and teams, the best jumpshooters and bigs are better than the best ball-dominators.. This means that Curry, MJ, Duncan and Kobe are better than Lebron, Oscar and Luka.

(FYI - Nash, Stockton, Haliburton and Magic aren't high-scoring ball-dominators like Luka, Lebron and Harden.... Accordingly, they don't have a high volume of unassisted buckets that force teammates into spot-up roles and lower assists, so they can still have high-assist teams that move the ball).

Why do repost your own posts as if they are agreed upon by everyone?

Curry and Kobe were always obviously not better than LeBron. Duncan is a very different player. Most people are comfortable with interpretations that point to Jordan > LeBron but you have to have serious LeBron hate to put Curry or Kobe over him. You have to jump through a million hoops to come up with that nonsense.

Go run the numbers for Kobe and LeBron and get back to me.

What if MJ averaged 6 TO's and 22 on 35% against the 86' Celtics instead of setting the record with 63?

How would his legacy be different?

He wouldn't have any rings because he wouldn't be anywhere near as good as the guy that set the record with 63

Of course, if he teamed up with Isiah and McHale then I'm sure he would win once every blue moon, but no one that gets 22 on 35% could win 6 chips.

And Lebron had the same numbers against the 08' Celtics (6 TO's and 26 on 35%), so he was g-league caliber against championship comp at 22-23 years old, while Kobe destroyed the Spurs at those ages as the 1st option in the series.. Kobe was far better at 22 and 23, while MJ was obviously universes better.
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I posted posted a bunch of statistical evidence first though... The previous post showed a statistical analysis and massive trend of teammates seeing a sharp decline in their assists alongside Lebron.. This contrasts with an increase for Jordan's teammates.

You guys counter this with "of course a high-assist ball-handler will lower everyone's assists because they're running the offense", but that's why they're worse than other skillsets - other skillsets don't lower teammates' assists and have low assist teams that win less.. Their skillset fosters better fits and 5-man basketball, so they produce better teams and are therefore better.

There's no hoops to jump through

Lebron is inferior to Kobe or Curry because he produces trash teams compared to them, due to the inherent suboptimal nature of his game.. This includes abnormal ball-dominance and high-scoring ball-dominance, which cannot produce great fits or teams.

It isn't coincidence that all the super-smart coaches like Red Auerbach, Popovich, Phil Jackson, Kerr, Mizzoula or Michael Malone are coaching highly assisted players that foster ball-movement, such as Russell, Curry, Duncan, MJ, Kobe, Kareem, Jokic or Tatum.

You could refute this by pointing to a dynasty led by a high-scoring ball-dominator, but there are none... Oscar, Luka, Lebron, Harden, Westbrook and SGA are perennial losers that cannot produce great teams because their skillset fosters weak fits and lowers teammate assists, which prevents high-assist teams.

Winning with non-franchise players and secondary producers like Jamal Murray, Klay or Pippen requires goat chemistry... Curry, Jokic and MJ learned the chemistry required to win with the roster they had, while Lebron never learned how to win and opted for talent-based winning (all-star team strategy)... He never learned how to develop great chemistry or great teams, so he's vastly inferior to the best guys that did, such Curry, MJ, Duncan or Kobe
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You seem to be quite happy to forgive Kobe for hispoor series.