Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
Posting guidelines for Politics and Soci...
These are our baselines. We're not reinventing the wheel here. If you aren't sure if something is acceptable to post, its better to ask first. If you think someone is posting something that violates the above guidelines, please report it or PM me rather than responding in kind.
To reiterate some of the points:
1. No personal attacks. This is a broad instruction, but, in general, we want to focus on attacking an argument rather than the poster making it. It is fine to say a post is antisemitic; it is not okay to call someone an antisemite over and over. If you believe someone is making antisemitic posts, report them or PM me. The same goes for calling people "baby killers" and "genocide lovers". You are allowed to argue that an action supports genocide or that the consequences of certain policies results in the death of children, but we are no longer going to be speaking to one another's intentions. It is not productive to the conversation and doesn't further any debate.
2. Racist posts and other bigoted statements that target a particular group or individuals of such groups with derogatory comments are not allowed. This should not need further explanation.
3. Graphic Images need to be in spoilers with a trigger warning.
4. Wishing Harm on other posters will result in an immediate timeout.
5. Genocidal statements such as "Kill 'em all" etc, are no longer permissible in the thread.
If anyone has any questions about the above, please PM me. I don't want a discussion about the rules to derail the content of this thread. If anything needs clarifying, I will do that in this thread.
Please be aware this thread is strictly moderated[/quote]
30756 Replies
--This story is pretty wild. In 2022 Iran kidnapped someone in Dubai who is a German citizen that has been living in the US since 2003; and executed him for "terrorism" after 2 years of custody and a "trial" where he didn't even get to defend himself.
there are so many similar stories. so many books have been written and are written now.
but unlike the twitter poster that reposts here every unbased claim about Israel, we all know the real truth behind the evil that is the IRI and their proxies. the attempt to create any moral symmetry between us and them would have been comical, if it wasnt so sad.
be anti Israel as much as you want, but please dont spread lies, or partial information, which is sometimes worst than lies.
Citing historical facts that you don’t like doesn’t then make them untrue by default.
I’m going to ask you to please read the rules for posting in this thread that are stickied in the OP of this thread. I’ve been so far allowing you a lot of leeway since you are the only one here with direct and intimate knowledge into this conflict, but the rules do still apply to you and the way you address others in this thread.
Citing historical facts that you don’t like doesn’t then make them untrue by default.
I’m going to ask you to please read the rules for posting in this thread that are stickied in the OP of this thread. I’ve been so far allowing you a lot of leeway since you are the only one here with direct and intimate knowledge into this conflict, but the rules do still apply to you and the way you address others in this thread.
I understand your position but dont really care for meta discussions and discussions on discussion.
I believe that conversations on such loaded topics should be held without almost any limitations. i dont get offended by the anti sematic remarks that are spread here, but address them, as they are a part of this story.
but you run the show here and you can exercise your power here as you may feel. no offence, but i do feel it that people will exercise power, as small as it is.
I do think tough that blocking conversations on the source of the problem - radical Islam, renders the entire discussion almost useless
I understand your position but dont really care for meta discussions and discussions on discussion.
I believe that conversations on such loaded topics should be held without almost any limitations. i dont get offended by the anti sematic remarks that are spread here, but address them, as they are a part of this story.
but you run the show here and you can exercise your power here as you may feel. no offence, but i do feel it that people will exercise power, as small as it is.
I do think tough that
It is weird that conversation on such a contentious topic is intentionally muted. People should enter this thread at their own risk. If something hurts their feelings they should simply not participate. They should probably not be on a political forum. I chime in from time to time but I'm not a big fan of walking on eggshells. Unfortunately this seems to be the way the world is heading. Men seem to have less testosterone these day's so they need to be coddled and protected.
Israel said exactly when and where they were attacking. Journalists know if they stay away from terrorists (or resistance fighters if that is how you perceive them) and stay away from the areas Israel announces they are going to bomb, then there is little danger.
I would guess most "journalist" casualties are because the person in question was purposefully embedded with terrorists or terrorist themselves disguising themselves as a journalist.
FWIW, it assuredly is much more dangerous in Gaza tha
Yep!
Notice how all of the photographers and camera people knew exactly were to place themselves. They knew exactly were the bombs would fall. Anybody who dies in this attack is either stupid, suicidal or being forced to stay in the area. What other country tells you to get out?
I understand your position but dont really care for meta discussions and discussions on discussion.
I believe that conversations on such loaded topics should be held without almost any limitations. i dont get offended by the anti sematic remarks that are spread here, but address them, as they are a part of this story.
but you run the show here and you can exercise your power here as you may feel. no offence, but i do feel it that people will exercise power, as small as it is.
I do think tough that
I understand your position as well, and wish the thread required less maintenance. The problem is several people have completely lost their **** in this thread, to the point that it needed to be closed repeatedly.
So now we have this iteration as an alternative to nothing at all. If everyone could debate like adults, maybe we could switch it back at some point.
They have total surveillance and everyone is evacuated from the area when they do their announced strikes/demolitions of buildings and terror tunnels.
When it comes to surprise attacks on high value targets, there is a different calculus and some low level of collateral damage is deemed acceptable if the target is high enough value (eg. the strike on Nasrallah's bunker).
One of the worst takes ITT.
1. We not only drop leaflets, but also send direct massages, make calls to leaders of the community, send announcements by videos, post the evacuation orders in all media and more. we also inform the UN ahead of time so they can to help convene the massage to the population. choosing to focus on one of the means, is very telling.
2. we also provide safe corridors of passage, help elderly people and small kids to move to safe zones, provide defense to the population aga
IDF 100% most moral army in the Middle East. o7
The "Palestinians" love working for the Israelis. They get great pay and benefits. They are treated fairly. Palestinians line up to get into Israel to work. "Palestinians" would much prefer to work for Israelis than Arabs.
Palestinians 'line up to get into Israel to work' because (a) Israel firmly suppresses economic activity in Palestinian areas and (b) Israel operates a strict pass system with long delays at checkpoints, remarkably like the 'pump' system in apartheid South Africa, where black workers were 'pumped in' from their ghetto 'townships' to work for the white folks and then pumped back out again and got rid of at the end of the day. I would not say this was anything to be proud of.
Any sources on Israel using leaflet drops as a form of psychological warfare and an out to kill civilians? I see that during WW2 leaflets were used to disseminate propaganda and possibly provide some “moral cover” but nothing specific to Israel. Seems irresponsible to claim Israel is using leaflets for a certain purpose based on events from WW2 that didn’t involve Israel.
Any sources on Israel using leaflet drops as a form of psychological warfare and an out to kill civilians? I see that during WW2 leaflets were used to disseminate propaganda and possibly provide some “moral cover” but nothing specific to Israel. Seems irresponsible to claim Israel is using leaflets for a certain purpose based on events from WW2 that didn’t involve Israel.
I was very careful to make no specific claim as to Israel’s usage of them; just that historically they have not been used in the way many in this thread claim. So I do not take the leaflets at immediate face value because I am aware of their primary and secondary usages, and am not privy to government discussions about which one Israel is doing.
It’s merely an observation that any nation at war that would use leaflets altruistically would make them the exception, not the rule.
Israel dropped leaflets in Southern Lebanon before the pager attacks.
but why does it matter if its leaflets or web posts or phone calls or texts or that Arab speaker going on TV.
article from Christian anti-Hezbollah Lebanese guy.
Hot Take: it's actually not okay to bomb an apartment complex even if you give the residents a few hours notice to pick up their stuff and run.
I was very careful to make no specific claim as to Israel’s usage of them; just that historically they have not been used in the way many in this thread claim. So I do not take the leaflets at immediate face value because I am aware of their primary and secondary usages, and am not privy to government discussions about which one Israel is doing.
It’s merely an observation that any nation at war that would use leaflets altruistically would make them the exception, not the rule.
Fair enough, but much of this wasn’t clear from your original post.
Israel dropped leaflets in Southern Lebanon before the pager attacks.
but why does it matter if its leaflets or web posts or phone calls or texts or that Arab speaker going on TV.
article from Christian anti-Hezbollah Lebanese guy.
First link has almost nothing to do with what I asked. Second link is a horribly biased opinion piece that states that Israel sometimes gives warning and sometimes doesn’t.
Hot Take: it's actually not okay to bomb an apartment complex even if you give the residents a few hours notice to pick up their stuff and run.
It's an overly simplistic take. There is context as to why an apartment complex might be bombed. Are there rockets being fired out of there? Are there terrorists hunkering down there? Are there supplies of weapons being stored there? Are the Israelis taking fire from ther
Hot take: War sucks!
First link has almost nothing to do with what I asked. Second link is a horribly biased opinion piece that states that Israel sometimes gives warning and sometimes doesn’t.
you asked if Israel ever dropped leaflets. the first link says that indeed they have.
and yes, that person is biased against the people dropping bombs on his family friends and country. still, hes not an Islamist terrorist Hezbollah antifa supersoldier. I stupidly thought that you may calibrate your viewpoint even slightly or just give it a second thought when shown the well written thoughts of someone like that. stupid of me ofc.
you asked if Israel ever dropped leaflets. the first link says that indeed they have.
and yes, that person is biased against the people dropping bombs on his family friends and country. still, hes not an Islamist terrorist Hezbollah antifa supersoldier. I stupidly thought that you may calibrate your viewpoint even slightly or just give it a second thought when shown the well written thoughts of someone like that. stupid of me ofc.
That’s not what I asked. No one is forced to engage you in here, in fact, many have put you on ignore. I’m sure you think it’s because they can’t handle the truths you’re revealing, but in reality, you make it impossible to have a conversation.
The writer claims Israel’s intent is to kill civilians, among other ridiculous things. While I’m sure you agree with this, it doesn’t make it an unbiased source. Well written doesn’t absolve gross biases.
I was very careful to make no specific claim as to Israel’s usage of them; just that historically they have not been used in the way many in this thread claim. So I do not take the leaflets at immediate face value because I am aware of their primary and secondary usages, and am not privy to government discussions about which one Israel is doing.
It’s merely an observation that any nation at war that would use leaflets altruistically would make them the exception, not the rule.
All countries act with an ulterior motive. Israel certainly isn't warning the Gazans just to be nice. They have two objectives. First, separate the good guys from the bad guys. Second, They want to be able to go in guns a blazing and do what's needed. Civilian casualties is a bad outcome for them. Israel is absolutely not intentionally targeting civilians in an attempt at genocide or collective punishment. I'm sure there are bad actors both within the IDF and within the government who would support this. I think people conflate these bad actors with the nation of Israel as a whole.
That’s not what I asked. No one is forced to engage you in here, in fact, many have put you on ignore. I’m sure you think it’s because they can’t handle the truths you’re revealing, but in reality, you make it impossible to have a conversation.
The writer claims Israel’s intent is to kill civilians, among other ridiculous things. While I’m sure you agree with this, it doesn’t make it an unbiased source. Well written doesn’t absolve gross biases.
I never said he was an unbiased source.
US state department spokesperson Matthew Miller told reporters:
We are deeply concerned by the loss of civilian life in this incident. This was a horrifying incident with a horrifying result.
He said he could not speak to the total death toll, but noted:
There are reports of two dozen children killed in this incident. No doubt a number of them are children who have been fleeing the effects of this war for more than a year now.
US officials have reached out to Israel’s government “to ask what happened here”, he added.
