NL2/3. Turn decision with AhTd

feels like BB is trying to name his price for a river. I probably just shove here.

I call hoping he double barrel bluffs river with missed clubs or open ender.

Just ship it, he’s going to have lots of draws and top pair.

Yeah, agree with just shipping it, but expecting to see T8/88 a fair bit. Nothing we can do.

Curious if a 2/5 reg takes this line with a BD draw. Seems like V would mostly check or jam for max fold equity.

I dunno. It's close. I might just call, but I'd expect V to jam all rivers, and don't see a way to get away from our hand if we think he has any bluffs.

I don't wanna fold out KTs, I would just call. It's also possible he's ahead. Tank/call (try to buy a small river value bet from him just in case). I think jamming is over playing it but that's just me.

With these small stacks preflop can be awkward because we're of course cool attempting to raise from LP and isolate a loose limper, but at the same time we don't really want to setup a commitment spot with ATo either. It can be a tricky tightrope to walk.

Flop is very drawless so if betting there is no reason to go this large, imo.

Turn is a pretty gross spot. Dude was the first coldcaller of a large 7x preflop raise, then called a large bet on a completely drawless flop with fish still behind to act. If we call the bet, we'll only have $165 left in what will be a $250 pot; feeling committed? The more nittier / ABC / face up we are seen, the more I lean to a nitty fold here.

ETA: Yikes, can't believe the discussion is between jamming and calling when clearly it is one of calling versus folding. We think this guy got to the turn with some sort of draw?

GcluelessNLnoobG

Some reads would help. All we know is BB is a 2/5 reg.

I don't love any of our options here. Folding TPTK seems extremely exploitable, but I do think we're beat more often than not. If V gets here with T8/88, which seems like the most likely value hand, we're toast.

My first thought was that he'd bet turn bigger for value, and so his small bet looks more like V trying to name his price to draw, but maybe not. Maybe it's just always T8/88, never a draw, and we should just fold.

If V seems capable of having bluffs, then it's a call or jam. If he doesn't seem capable, then it's just a fold. If we're not sure, I guess it's just a call and see what happens.

Hero doesn’t have to have tptk. Maybe V is “taking control” with a ten, maybe some cc hand like A4 A5 45 56, maybe 99 77, potentially random floats, and expects hero to fold a bunch. I would fold T9 but not AT. Anything in between is close.

I think it is pretty optimistic to think Villain is getting floaty preflop for this amount or floaty postflop for this amount multiway, all OOP. I could perhaps see middling pairs like 99 doing this, so I could maybe get behind a turn call and see what he does on the river. Shoving seems extremely spewy.

GcluelessNLnoobG

I jammed the turn. He tanked, called and showed me AA.

I only have played a couple of very short seasons with him and mentally noted him as a thinking player.

Agreeing with PugDolk here. 140 in the pot at the turn. With H having 220 behind. V has like 6.5 to 1 IO with a 55 bet, which is more than enough for a simple club draw. Or something like an A4/54 etc though that gets closer and outs are dirty.

Clearly H sort of likes their hand, betting 40 into 60 on that flop. Not many 3 or 2 containing hands for H's range, so if V only has some kind of 54/A2/A3 hand, they'll need to improve vs H's probable T or other PP.

If V is trying to induce, wp.

Edit: and right after I post, comes the results. I'm going to disagree about the "thinking player" part, OP. "Yes, let's go MW with Aces, OOP," is definitely the mark of the studied player.

Though it does improve his BB pf overcalling range, LOL.

This is why reads are important. You have now learned that this player is an opposite player. He likes to trap. Would not be surprised that he raises more with weaker hands. Keep it in mind for the future.

He's far from a thinking player. As you get better and better you'll soon realize all these players you thought were good are actually just recreational fish.

flop cbet is too big. this board is drawless you should bet a small amt getting value from pocket pairs.

turn is a call, nothing else makes any sense. shoving to get a FD to fold is bad poker (what FD could he even have after you bet $40 OTT?). if you call the turn you can still fold the river to a shove.

villian's pf play is unorthodox but i think its fine as 1) underrepping his hand will sometimes win the max and 2) kept the fish in the pot preflop. if i was villain i would not donk turn as it folds out your bluffs (i would donk flop small to get at least the fish or even you both to call or you to raise the flop with an worse overpair).

if he 3b pre to $80 which is standard he wins $25. instead he won your stack and some extra from the fish too. this is going to happen alot if you have a nitty pf image and only 3b nutted hands.

I'm sure that the average 2-5 reg thinks about a lot of things, but playing optimally isn't usually one of them.

Calling so he can be OOP 3-way doesn't seem good

Hand is played fine. Turn shove is good. Make a note that BB is a fish, although I'd probably play the hand the same way even knowing that information

As other people already wrote bet smaller on flop.

As played, if all what I know from villain is that he's a reg, and I didn't see any weird lines from him until now, I make a nitty fold.

This line from (semi) regs is on average way more value than anything else imo.

Would call JJ+, and call shove on any blank river.

How in the actual f**k does this guy get here this way with AA?

Didn't think we'd be good, but make a mental note this guy does wonky $hlt like this, so you can adjust. Under c-bet, over-fold against him.

I wouldn't immediately write the guy off as a fish or over-adjust just based off 1 play with an unorthodox line and a winning result. Doing this as a low frequency thing is fine. Even if in a solver you're losing a grip of EV flatting here it' still a play you could justify as V with reads on H and the other V. If your read is they'll both reliably stack off postflop with one pair and H cbets a ton then taking a flop here isn't that bad. Dan Harrington once 3bet squeezed 62o on the final table of the WSOP ME and got 2 better hands to fold. It's a bigger mistake to assume that because he flatted AA here he ALWAYS flats AA pf or that he has no 3bet pf range or that he is always going to play hands weird like this off of seeing 1 hand than it is to just assume he's doing this at such a low frequency you can simplify it out. If he regularly plays hands weird you'll notice it just observing the game over the next few orbits but I wouldn't overadjust from one showdown like this.

Reverse players are a species of low stakes fish though if you see a player do this but open 64o for example you can bucket them with the player type.

"Action Dan" had been playing with them for hours when he did this. Not even close to the same situation, not least because both of them knew he was a tight player.

With all due respect, your answer is good for the tough games you play. In the low stakes world, players are not varying their play. I'll agree that you want to keep your mind open for more data, but low stakes isn't a world where people are playing GTO and you aren't going to have hours of data to draw on to make a decision.

Villain inviting fish along for a huge 1/9th of his stack to go only 3ways isn't exactly horrendous, imo. Even Hero isn't exactly deep so flatting against him ain't horrendous either (although admittedly probably not my preference at this stack size).

GcluelesshorribleregnoobG

Obviously always lots of +EV to play things, but I think preflop is defensible with shorty fish behind and his postflop line is fine. Board is completely drawless, so let the original raiser cbet and then flat to bring in the fish. Now donk the turn to make sure it doesn't check thru and we can play for stacks. And facing a later street jam is always dicey, so no harm in thinking things over before confirming to follow thru with the plan.

Honestly, Villain's play in the hand is far better than anyone advocating for a turn shove, imo.

Gnothatin',justsayin'G