Premature card ruling . Need help.

The error at issue is burning a third card before the new turn. Since there was action on that turn card, that error has to stand. You still have to burn a card before the river. Consider the reason for burn cards in poker.

KITN to the floor making the original ruling on the premature card for not noticing the dealer burning again before dealing the turn. They're supposed to be there directing & watching it to make sure it's done right.

Thanks for the input. The dealer never called the floor until after the river was down.
By the time the floor got there, all cards were out and there were 4 burn cards.

Oh, wow. As a floor, I'd be amenable to what the players in hand are willing to do, but if forced to make a ruling I'd go with what I wrote in my previous post. But the dealer should get absolutely smoked for this one. Taken aside, written up, probably suspended too.

Send the dealer packing for the day after this down. If it happens again, fire them.

Probably wouldn’t happen but that should be the policy. Dealers that never want to call the floor are usually some of the most incompetent in the whole casino.

Edit: As a player you have to put your foot down and insist on calling the floor, even if you’re not in the hand.

Burning before river is correct, as the back of the card deck has been exposed before action on turn. Dealer habitually burning before the new turn, things happen. One mistake leading to another.

Should have been no burn after reshuffle and before new turn. Once the extra burn happens and action proceeds on turn, and especially once the burn and river happen, it’s too late. Proceed with the four burns.

This is not a major issue.

The dealer should call the floor once the early burn and turn happens in the first place though, which would allow the floor to explain exactly what will happen, and probably prevents the issue in the first place.

What dinesh wrote.

[QUOTE="TDA Rules"]
RP-5. Prematurely Dealt Cards

Board and burn cards are sometimes dealt prematurely, before action on the preceding round is finished. The general procedures for these situations are:

A: Premature flop, leave the flop burn card as the burn. Return the premature board cards to the deck stub and reshuffle the entire stub. Re-deal the flop (without another burn) from the newly shuffled stub.

B: A premature turn card: leave the turn burn card as the burn. Return the premature turn card to the deck stub and reshuffle the entire stub. Re-deal the turn (without another burn) from the newly shuffled stub

C: A premature river card: leave the river burn card as the burn. Return the premature river card to the deck stub and reshuffle the entire stub. Re-deal the river (without another burn) from the newly shuffled stub

D: Premature card in stud: the premature card is returned to the stub, the stub is re-shuffled (See RP-17, reshuffling), and a new street is dealt from the newly shuffled stub without another burn.
[/QUOTE]

There's a saying about driving: "A bad driver never misses his exit." It can be reworked to apply to dealing: "A bad dealer never needs to call the floor or consider the protests of a player."

A good dealer calls the floor despite knowing the proper procedure. He listens to others despite being the professional, because he knows that professionals get it wrong sometimes.

This isn't a simple mistake — it's ego and hubris at the cost of game integrity. These people are not correctable, and that's the fireable offense, not the mistake.

Suspended for dealing the wrong random card? That's crazy.

No the issue was not following procedure and calling the floor.

If dealer won’t call dealer for this relatively common issue, where else do they violate procedure. If floor was called, very likely the extra burn never happens.

Was dealer trying to hide a minor error? If so does he hide more important ones.

Yeah, I get that but for this particular issue I've always thought it was silly to have to call the floor when everyone knows the procedure.

agreed, but this is a case where in many games that just isn't the case.

here, the dealer didn't know it. and none of the players knew it, or they weren't paying attention (or didn't care), because no one said anything until the river. I find that often times even experienced players just do not know what the rule is.

worth mentioning that the procedure changed 1-2 years ago too, adding to the confusion.

I am pretty sure the dealer knew the rule as well, just had a brain farr.

This!!!

Even though and dealer might know proper procedure, there are still lots of reasons for him to call the floor.

1. In general, players are more likely to trust a ruling coming from someone wearing a suit than a dealer. It doesn't matter if that person wearing the suit is newer than the dealer and knows less about poker.

2. Dealers work for tips. Let the floorperson be the final ruling on why throwing in an oversized chip is just a call and not a raise. Let the floorperson take the flak from the player. Sure, I know the rule, almost every other player at the table knows the rule as well. Doesn't matter, the whole reason floor people are there is for disputes. Let them do their job. Floor calls do not reflect on the dealer. If anything, not calling the floor is more likely to make the dealer look bad.

3. A dealer is only at the table for 30 minutes. Often they don't know if there is any history with a player. Early in my career I was at a table where a played out of turn. The first time I gently reminded him that he needed to wait until the players before him acted and play in turn. The second time I got a bit more stern, but I still didn't call the floor. The 3rd time I tried to make it clear to the player that if he kept playing out of turn that there would be penalties. Another player spoke up and said that he had been doing it the whole tournament and that the floor knew about it.

I realized I messed up. The other player shouldn't have had to speak up, possibly the 2nd time and most definitely the 3rd time it happened I should have called the floor. The floor knew the history of this player, I didn't.

Dealers should always error on calling the floor too much. That is what they are there for.

2 wrong random cards. The procedure is "known", but it's also an automatic floor call. Whatever reason the dealer has for doing it themself without a floor present should be corrected immediately.

There is a bigger problem than the extra burn card. The turn card should be moved and put aside and then the flop betting action should be completed.

The dealer is not supposed to put the turn card back in the deck and shuffle. The turn card should be moved aside face up and a new burn card is put out and then what would have been the river is turned over as the turn card.

After the turn betting round is over then the original turn card should be put back in the deck and the deck is shuffled and the new river card is put out (without a 4th burn card). They do this so that all burn cards are the same as they would have been if the mistake hadn't happened.

In any case, this is why the Floor should be called over when this happens. I get that the Dealer would prefer the Floor not to know he made a mistake but still the Floor would get this right close to 100% of the time.

The big problem with putting the turn card back in the stub and allowing it to possibly come out on the turn is that now everybody knows that the card that was put back in the stub has a much higher % of hitting the turn or the river than any other unseen card. And by "everybody" I mean all players who are mathematically adept. If the original turn card is put back in the deck only before the river is dealt then it has roughly the same chance of coming out on the river as all cards had coming out on the turn and river (because the stub in NL has about half the cards in the deck). In a PLO game it becomes crazy different because the stub only has like 9 cards (in a 9 handed game) before the river.

Not any more. Current tda rules you shuffle premature card in immediately once action is complete and redeal turn.

My understanding is, TDA procedures went from what Mr. Rick described (trying to maintain the hand as much as possible) to what Dinesh wrote (trying to make procedure consistent across all streets) circa 2022.

Was discussed in detail back when the rule changed. Not saying old or new way is better as there are pros and cons to each. IIRC, the biggest reasons for the new way were a) basically keeps the method the same regardless of when the card is exposed and b) the old way was more complicated, easier to mess up because you are keeping this extra card laying around plus other than those worried about the sanctity of the original 5 random cards, few players actually understand the reason that method was developed. IOW, they, even if they can, have not run the math to understand why that card is now more likely to show up again.

Those who prefer the old way are part of a tiny minority by my observation, even among those who understand the math.

Get it back out there for...me? The rule doesn't know whether I want that card.

What I meant was that they are increasing the chances that the card would end up being on the board. It will now have close to double the chance of every other possible card in NL (i.e., cards that people haven't yet seen).

This makes it even crazier in PLO. If it happens in PLO the chances of that card coming back in a 9 handed game would be about 23.5% while every other card would have a slim chance (like 5%).

I don't really care because it happens so infrequently.

The procedure includes calling the floor. If everybody knows what the procedure is, then someone else can call the floor over if they are so inclined, but the floor must be called over.

Yes, I know that. I believe that I am still entitled to my opinion that it is silly.