Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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30593 Replies
Perish the thought of people not pulling their weight getting carried.
Spoiler
Hardly. It was on the cards wasn't it?
Are you moist with the prospect of rounding up immigrants like cattle and deporting them?
Are you moist with the prospect of rounding up immigrants like cattle and deporting them?
I like the direction you're going with that dig. By the end of Trump's second term we'll be all the way back to having it be acceptable to call each other sissies and *****, just like in the good old days.
IDF veteran and Holocaust scholar Omer Bartov of Brown University explains why it's genocide.
“When you look back, you could see that there was a concerted effort, not only to move the population over and over again, but also to destroy everything that makes the life of a group possible. There was a concerted and intentional effort to destroy universities, schools, hospitals, mosques, museums, public buildings and housing and infrastructure. If you look back, you could say that this was happening from the beginning. But the kind of proof in the pudding was this last effort in Rafah.”
Rafah was a grim milestone. But the very last stage of this genocide, Bartov says, is happening right now in Jabalia in north Gaza, where over 1,000 people have been killed in the last three weeks. What’s happening in north Gaza should not be considered – as it often seems to be in the media – as just more bombing. Rather, Bartov notes, it is a genocidal campaign clearly based on The General’s Plan.
“This is a plan sketched out by retired General Giora Eiland, which has been discussed for months now in the Israeli media, to empty that region of civilians through military pressure and starvation … This is a first step toward annexing the Strip north of the Netzarim Corridor, which will lead to its settlement by Jews and will itself be only the first phase in the gradual takeover of increasing portions of the Strip, squeezing civilians into ever shrinking areas and eventually either forcing them out of the Strip or causing ever larger numbers of them die. In short, this is a genocidal plan.”
sounds a bit conspiratorial
Hardly. It was on the cards wasn't it?
Are you moist with the prospect of rounding up immigrants like cattle and deporting them?
I hope they take it on a case by case basis. If these people are learning the language and being productive law abiding citizens then give them a path to citizenship. They will need to go to the back of the line and go about it like lawful migrants have. Also, the US should be more picky about who gets to come into the country.
Hardly. It was on the cards wasn't it?
Are you moist with the prospect of rounding up immigrants like cattle and deporting them?
illegal immigrants.
I am very motivated positively by the idea that at least one western country will start using the full force of the state against entrants which our societies *don't want in our property*.
it's very important to do so, so it can spread to other countries, and we all start doing it en masse and people from elsewhere stop thinking they have any right to trespass our property without repercussion.
entering our property is a privilege to be earned, according to our rules, and if you (the trespasser) don't agree you can go back from where you came.
Would be curious to know more about this. What are some of the inherent flaws that can't be fixed? People not pulling their weight still getting carried?
There are many reasons why this system fails. Just to list a few:
1. Reverse evolution: over the years, most successful and highly gifted kids chose not to stay on the kibbutz. Our kibbutz for instance has "Bnei Meshek" (people who were born on the kibbutz and grew up here) who reached the highest positions in academia, business and more. Most of them chose to leave the kibbutz. As such, the weaker Bnei Meshek stayed, and married weaker spouses. They had weaker kids and so forth. There are off course exceptions to this rule, but kibbutzim in general suffered from Reverse evolution.
2. The third-generation failure: first generation were idealistic to the core. They really tried to change the world through changing human nature, in an attempt of creating a totally equal society (they failed, but at least they tried). Second generation were the enhancers. They added the industrial branch, expanded the work force to outside labor and created not only a self-sufficient autarky village, but also an affluent society. Third generation were spoiled and privileged. They grew up into a society of "haves" and squandered the hard work of their predecessors.
3. The fallacy of equality: the premise of human equality was based on two essential principles: Equality of work and equality of possessions. Both were never reached and can never be reached. To explain this, I will need much more than a paragraph.
4. The free rider's failure: what you alluded to - people not pulling their weight, was and is a major failure in the system. This failure stems from the lack of personal responsibility, the lack of outside motivators to excel (i.e. no immediate compensation) and the opportunity to self-indulge.
5. No mutual mission statement: maybe the hardest failure to overcome, and the one that evades the eyes of all communists. Capitalism or moderate socialism (or any system thereof) intakes the support of most of the population, and not even. Communism or any system thereof intakes full and willing participation of all. The critical mass needed to fracture a communist community is one – first person to hold possessions, or better his personal life in a way that separates him from the rest, will undermine the entire fabric of society. That is why communist countries could only operate by force and by removing anyone who they perceived to deviate from the norm. That is why there are not small communities being formed by the people who preach to this way of living, all the while refusing to create their own small "utopias".
As mentioned above, that is only a partial list.
Interesting, thanks for sharing your thoughts.
I was on the subway the other day talking to a communist. He told me to stand up for the working man and got upset when I decided to keep my seat.
Groanski
There are many reasons why this system fails. Just to list a few:
1. Reverse evolution: over the years, most successful and highly gifted kids chose not to stay on the kibbutz. Our kibbutz for instance has "Bnei Meshek" (people who were born on the kibbutz and grew up here) who reached the highest positions in academia, business and more. Most of them chose to leave the kibbutz. As such, the weaker Bnei Meshek stayed, and married weaker spouses. They had weaker kids and so forth. There are off co
#1; is so brutally honest and fascinating
Thank you for posting
Peter Beinart:
A June CBS News poll found that while most voters over the age of 65 supported arms sales to Israel, voters under the age of 30 opposed them by a ratio of more than three to one. And while only 56 percent of white voters favored cutting off weapons, among Black voters the figure was 75 percent.
You think Palestinians swung the US presidential election?
Except no one thinks Trump, or a Republican majority in Congress, is going to stop selling weapons to Israel. So that kind of invalidates the entire premise.
Indirectly. Leftist pro Islamist activism, and the perception the Democrat party was more willing to appease such horrible behavior (of our native activists, not the Palestinians themselves) was certainly a factor that turned off the populace.
#1 in general works at the regional, state, country level as well a lot. Systems that cause the most talented people to leave because they can gain more in other systems either "enslave" their best people or can't win in the long term.
That's btw why the smartest collectivists know their ideology only has a chance if it's adopted globally.
for decades Dem leaders have preached about adhering to lofty ideals like civil rights, human rights, Western liberal values. then they did Gaza and completely exposed themselves as craven liars and murderers. they wont get these voters back and they wont even try.
#1 in general works at the regional, state, country level as well a lot. Systems that cause the most talented people to leave because they can gain more in other systems either "enslave" their best people or can't win in the long term.
That's btw why the smartest collectivists know their ideology only has a chance if it's adopted globally.
Or if they completely enslave their own people. Capitalists build walls to keep (too many) people out. Collectivists build walls to keep people from leaving.
No evidence that this moved the needle at all, and Harris did (relatively) well in districts with a heavy Arab population. the avg American is fully onboard with continuing to help Israel massacre what's left of Palestine.
No. It isn't a issue with high political salience. Same as what is going on in Sudan, Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq isn't.
Afghanistan and Iraq have taken massive steps backwards in human rights, especially for women, since we created power vacuums and then ultimately abandoned them to Islamists. But it isn't politically salient at all. What is going on between Israel and the Axis of Evil is more politically salient than Afghanistan, but still not particularly important to domestic votes.
Except no one thinks Trump, or a Republican majority in Congress, is going to stop selling weapons to Israel. So that kind of invalidates the entire premise.
The point for a certain % of the 14 million who sat out the election is to send a message to Dems that they won't be winning elections in the future with pro-Israel positions. It probably won't happen in 2028, but as boomers die off and Gen Zers hit voting age, there is no doubt that team blue will = pro Palestine and disarming Israel in the future.
