Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
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30588 Replies
sure and arabs as well isn't a synonim of muslim. You might think the actual intent was islamophobic sure. But then we can start from antisemitism everytime anyone attacks Israeli people.
Yes of course it's not exact or even a good proxy. But it's obvious to everyone what the intentions of people chanting "**** off Arabs" are as they tear Palestine flags down from people's houses, isn't it, and it must be particularly gross for Israel's own Arab population to see.
It's just another very sad sign of what's happened to the Israeli and Gaza populations after so many decades of segregation, apartheid and propaganda.
Israeli sport fans have been travelling to all European countries for decades.
Cant think of the top of my head of one occasion that was even close to this one.
Ohhh yes I can.
the 1972 Munich Olympics for instance.
how did the Israelis brought on them selves that attack?
and if it is a violent response to Hooligans and not against Jews, why aren't the Muslims in Amsterdam attack British Hooligans for instance?
Yes of course it's not exact or even a good proxy. But it's obvious to everyone what the intention of people chanting "**** off Arabs" are as they tear Palestine flags down from people's houses, isn't it, and it must be particularly gross for Israel's own Arab population to see.
tbh i can see pretty clear elements of ethnical hatred but i am not even sure at this point it's about religion if it ever was.
I mean imagine palestinians collectively drop islam en mass becoming secular in their day to day lives, while keeping identical ideas on Israel, armed "resistance", terrorist attack planning and so on.
Do you really think Israeli would react differently if 10% of Gazeans claimed to believe in Allah instead of whatever % it is now?
tbh i can see pretty clear elements of ethnical hatred but i am not even sure at this point it's about religion if it ever was.
I mean imagine palestinians collectively drop islam en mass becoming secular in their day to day lives, while keeping identical ideas on Israel, armed "resistance", terrorist attack planning and so on.
Do you really think Israeli would react differently if 10% of Gazeans claimed to believe in Allah instead of whatever % it is now?
Dude, things are rarely only about religion, come on.
@Blue: What were Mossad doing there?
You dont have to answer, but I dont get why not. I can't for the life of me understand what is a better and more moral way of thinking than Liberalism. Im talking Hobbes, Locke, Rawls etc.
And I dont want to shoot anyone but I will shoot anyone who attacks me with physical violence if I can.
Sometimes they do (or they are linked to behaviours which depend on religion).
But for Israel-Palestine it's a territorial dispute between 2 different ethnic groups (each one of which is actually a melting pot of several groups). It's 2 tribes at war religion is a proxy of that but even absent religion the war would be the same.
That's different from say europeans claiming they prefer non religious people from muslim-majority country than actually praticant religious people, because the praticants have behavioural preferences that go against cultural values of european nations (such as treatment of women and so on).
ISrael doesn't give a **** about how Gazeans treat their women, Gazean don't give a **** about how Israeli prepare their kosher food, they hate each other for other reasons.
you dont have to be asked a specific question in order to argue on the merit of the conflict in good faith, understanding both sides are responsible for the current situation.
each side was more "in the wrong" at different times, and each side created a sense of wariness of the other sides motives.
the problem with Jal, Victor and you, is the one dimensional approach, which Dunyain just dissected.
And ofc the main blind spot is ignoring the phenomena of the radical Islam, and the part it takes in a
I don’t think Victor and Jal would consider me part of their tribe first of all. I have argued far more on the both sides aspect of this before you came into this thread than either of them. Victor has called me disgusting in the past for suggesting that Palestinians share some responsibility for the current situation.
Just as you raised the argument that the violence is not necessarily against Jews, but maybe against Israel, while Jews and others are explaining to you and to all that they cant even carry Jewish symbols, as they are being targeted.
It is ok to criticize Israel, but we cant ignore the facts.
This is my point. It’s dangerous to add fodder to this logic. Antisemites wrongly believe it’s fair game in anger at Israel to attack Jewish people and institutions because they don’t distinguish between Israel and being Jewish (not that attacking people is ever fair game). When that happens, you correctly decry this kind of thinking as bigoted and illegitimate but then any time a symbol of the state is attacked you (or at least Mets) also want to claim that it’s necessarily antisemitic.
Edit: I’m also not saying this wasn’t an antisemitic incident I’m just criticizing the logic and the leap without proof.
You dont have to answer, but I dont get why not. I can't for the life of me understand what is a better and more moral way of thinking than Liberalism. Im talking Hobbes, Locke, Rawls etc.
And I dont want to shoot anyone but I will shoot anyone who attacks me with physical violence if I can.
There are separate threads to discuss political and economic philosophy. We can do that there.
media just floods these bullshit stories when an extermination campaign is going right before our eyes
Do we really need to finely parse the text of football hooligan chants?
Israeli sport fans have been travelling to all European countries for decades.
Cant think of the top of my head of one occasion that was even close to this one.
Ohhh yes I can.
the 1972 Munich Olympics for instance.
how did the Israelis brought on them selves that attack?
and if it is a violent response to Hooligans and not against Jews, why aren't the Muslims in Amsterdam attack British Hooligans for instance?
They're shitheads being belligerent *******s in a foreign city. It's not the Night of the Long Knives or 1972.
A bunch of people just got temp-banned for personal attacks and again speaking to each other's intentions and motivations.
Stop. Attacking. One. Another.
ADDRESS CONTENT.
Thanks ♥
the bigger problem, is that it is obvious that this world is going to absolute hell due to technology/AI acceleration, weaponized everything, the ensuing chaos from the "pace of pace" of change, consolidation of money, power and influence among the usual suspects... it no longer makes sense to do almost anything.
meaning, hundreds of years of tech "progress" happening in half a year, possibly. You can get a good sense of the various scenarios for the human race...
and in these times, the evil and dangerous strategies become more profitable, and the virtuous strategies become more complicated...
if you have a lousy hand, often the best play is to fold, because in the sad case of life, there's no one to bluff...
---"the problem is you can institutionalize a human being, but you can't institutionalize, or sometimes even destroy, a machine." ---MAC
"there's the infinite in the miniscule, and sometimes the approximate reverse: the miniscule in the infinite (at a value level)"
"the value of value. we don't get anything anymore."
"sometimes the lines are too straight in the mind, or on the page, for that matter."
We all have access to obvious information in the "information age", but why don't we apply what we learned, meaning act on it?
1. cowardice
2. stupidity
3. excuses
4. recklessness
Meanwhile,
. I'm sure this is just because of a few football hooligans and not representative of Israel.
often I see people parroting the talking point that many of dead listed as children are actually teenage combatants. the people asserting this never show any evidence and now we have direct evidence to the contrary.
After reading more about the Amsterdam incident it sounds like there was plenty of antisemitism on display.
often I see people parroting the talking point that many of dead listed as children are actually teenage combatants. the people asserting this never show any evidence and now we have direct evidence to the contrary.
If anyone wants to see the actual UN report, it's here.
https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/file...
They surveyed 8,119 verified fatal casualties between October and April, and the 44% figure for child casualties applies to the 7,607 killed in residential buildings. (Obviously this excludes people killed in street-fighting scenarios, but clearly that doesn't happen very much because Hamas prefer to hide.) They say that the largest group was aged 5-9, the next largest 10-14 and the smallest 0-4. (Page 9.)
It's notable that the 15-19s, a smaller percentage than any of the above, consist of almost equally males and females, with only a slight male bias. This does not help the Israeli claim that they're killing 'Hamas fighters', including teenage Hamas fighters, rather than anyone else. The UN finds that they have been using weapons with 'area' effect indiscriminately.
Then there's the whole problem of interfering with aid supplies (Section F, page 15, and Section H, page 18). Plus of course attacks on hospitals and medical staff (Section I, page 20). Also targeting of journalists (Section M, page 23). Also 'repeated mass displacement' without humanitarian provision and with frequent attacks on supposedly safe areas (Section N, page 23).
