LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

Hey FG. Guess who has the lowest average ppg in the Finals, Playoffs and regular season out of Kobe, LeBron and KD (by a fair amount)?

Finals all time ranking - 4, 6 & 13
Playoff all time ppg ranking - 4, 6 & 20
Regular Season all time ppg ranking - 6, 7 & 16

Kobe doesn't even belong in the conversation...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evbFHHudlfM&t=21m22s

YouTube

The TRUTH About Michael Jordan's Career

CLIFF NOTES:

* Nearly 80% of Jordan's buckets against the 88' Cavs were with 1 dribble or less, and he averaged 45 ppg for the series, so this is the most off-ball buckets ever scored in a series.. This is otherworldly scoring ability and amazing.

* Even Jordan's most "ball-dominant" series ever against the 86' Celtics saw over half of his buckets come in 2 dribbles or less

* Jordan is the goat off-ball player, by far, and people to this day have problems seeing such an athletic high-flyer in this way, just like Tex and Phil did back in the 80's - they were simply lucky that Jordan was the highly-assisted player that the triangle required, instead of a massive ball-dominator that they would have to "reel in", or that eventually forces every coach to put the ball in his hands and run a low-assisted game.

When you say that we don't know whether Jordan was highly-assisted before Phil got there, that's like saying we don't know if Shaq dunked a lot prior to 1997 because we don't have the actual dunk stats.. Understand that Jordan is the goat "off" guard... It's called "off" for a reason, aka "off-ball"

Fortunately, we're only talking about MADE field goals here, and there are hundreds of 3 minute youtube videos that show the makes only from each game, so I will take a few minutes each week and post the assisted rates for Jordan's most famous games, such as his very first 30 and 40 point games - Jordan was an extremely highly-assisted player from the moment he entered the league and also in Dean Smith's system at North Carolina - you can youtube the terms "Michael Jordan North Carolina" and see that literally 85-90% of his buckets were assisted in college, literally.. Again, this is what most people don't understand about his game but it's the reason he was 6 for 6 - he scored the most in the most fundamental way (off-ball).

Btw, Jordan's style was to get his jumper going, which would set up his blow-by and driving game.. So he would start games by hitting a 3 to 5 straight spot-ups, which means he would often generate a minimum 40% assisted rate in the first few minutes of the 1st quarter, even if he never hits another assisted shot for the whole game.

Most importantly, the triangle was renowned for being an "equal-opportunity-offense", which meant that everyone ran the same routes... It wasn't just Luc Longley that caught the ball on the high post - Steve Kerr caught the ball there as well and had the option to hand-off to a cutter (an option he would normally take).. That's why Phil and Tex didn't think MJ would score as much - they didn't think he could get shots off that way, nor did they think he could get as many shots with everyone running the same routes and having equal time with the ball... However, Phil and Tex didn't understand that MJ had been doing the "windshield-wiper" move on the post since high school, and this move fit perfectly in the triangle, so MJ didn't have to hand the ball off like Kerr does - he could just turn and shoot... They didn't realize how fundamentally-sound MJ was and how he could score the majority of his buckets while being assisted by teammates.. They didn't realize just how well this was going to work and they certainly didn't expect 6 for 6 in the Finals.. It worked literally perfectly by achieving the best teams with minimal all-star help.. They also didn't realize that even with the triangle working to perfection and everyone playing to capacity, that Jordan would still need to average 41 ppg to 3-peat and 36/7/8 in the 91-93' Finals, or 34/7/7 for the 91-93' Playoffs... Fortunately, MJ had the goat ability to score this much while still being assisted enough to allow the triangle to work.

Again, Tex and Phil thought they were going to muzzle MJ and therefore drastically underestimated the breadth of his game - they didn't realize that all of MJ's high-flying acrobatics actually included a goat level of fundamentals that fit perfectly in the triangle

Are those the numbers as 1st option???... Or does that include when Kobe shared the load with Shaq?

If we look at just Kobe's scoring as 1st option, I'm sure he beats Lebron easily and probably Durant too...

But again, KD and Lebron demonstrated over large samples that they cannot defeat max defensive attention (carry the scoring load on the championship level) or carry weak help over top teams (beat top 5 SRS teams with weak scoring & efficiency from sidekick), there's a reason for these inabilities - they aren't just random occurrences.

Specifically, KD lacked the physical strength to defeat max defensive attention and frequently wears down or gets pushed around against the top level of defensive attention... Meanwhile, Lebron has the strength but lacks the expert jumpshooting skill to defeat max defensive attention - he lacks the brand of ball (the ball doesn't move) at carry-job volumes to beat top teams, so he needs all-time scoring help and cannot carry the scoring load against top teams or Finals teams... Otoh, unlike KD or Lebron, Kobe could defeat max defensive attention (carry the scoring load) because he was physically stronger than KD and had expert jumpshooting skill that Lebron lacked - Kobe could drop 40 while the ball moved, and therefore maintain sufficient brand at carry-job volume to beat top teams.

Since KD and Lebron couldn't carry the scoring load, they needed the most help ever - no one needed more help to win than KD or Lebron... So the reality is that Kobe is far superior to both because his ability to carry the scoring load allowed him to win with less and also have better teams... Meanwhile,Wade also defeated max defensive attention, so he was every bit as good as KD or Lebron and Wade would've been 1st option over Lebron from 2005-2011...

Great teams or dynasties that mostly win for material stretches of time require their elite scorers be highly-assisted players.

The argument was about which skillset wins with the least and produces the dynasties, which has only been done by highly-assisted players, since they score in a way that promotes the best chemistry, teammate elevation, and ball movement/strategy/coaching.

No low-assisted player can be one of the greatest scorers ever, because their scoring has weak brand of ball and chemistry that wins less and even reduces many teammates below their true production capacity - their high volume of unassisted buckets leave teammates standing around in spot-up roles, which prevents teammate development/elevation, chemistry and elite winning.. The spot-up roles reduce teammates' assists and prevent elite team assists.

This is the historical record - let me know if you need bevies of specific examples.

ANY good player will increase a bad team's title equity... Whooptido.... Want a cookie?

The point is that Lebron's skillset puts a low ceiling on his teams - he cannot produce great teams that mostly win for material stretches of time and produces perennial losers instead... A player that produces perennial losers that almost never win will produce less long-run title equity than a skillset that can produce dynasties that mostly win for material stretches of time.

Lebron can only produce perennial losers and cannot produce great teams, while Curry can... That makes Curry better at basketball.

Lebron cannot produce great teams because his skillset of dribbling and having many unassisted buckets leaves teammates standing around in spot-up roles - this reduces their assists, which prevents elite team assists, chemistry or winning.

Pau < KD or Lebron's help

Pau < Wade, AD, Kyrie, Bosh, Love, Westbrook, and Harden....

Infact, Jamison was a 2x all-star (voted on by coaches & fans) and an MVP candidate in 2008, while Pau was nothing before joining Kobe except 1x all-star.

Nice that you missed Shaq.

And we've been through the Pau and Jamison comparisons before. You lost that argument remember.

I am not disputing that Michael Jordan is one of the GOAT off-ball players. I am trying to get you to understand that the utilization of that skill, and assisted fg%, is a function of coaching, offensive scheme, and personnel. The triangle offense did not grow out of Michael Jordan’s *******.

You posted pie charts for two series out of the dozens that Michael Jordan played in. Could you do me a favor? Don’t cherry pick, and post his assisted fg%, by year, for his entire career. Please please don’t post minute long cherry picked highlight clips of random Chicago Bulls series where you count the number of dribbles on every ****ing play.

Also, just curious, but are you the guy talking in those YouTube videos?

Remember when a 27 year old Howard joined the Lakers. Here's the awards for Howard in the proceeding 5 years.

And what did Kobe do with him?

Nothing.

But, but but, Jamison...

You've been proven wrong at every step, and your misperceptions thoroughly corrected... Here's a few examples from the last page of posts:

You claimed that MJ wasn't highly assisted before Phil and Tex arrived, but then got destroyed above with specific data... Before that blunder, you claimed that the 2019 Rockets wouldn't have higher assists with Kobe, but then we showed that they would go from 28th to a top 10 ranking by replacing Harden's unassisted buckets with Kobe's higher proportion of assisted buckets..

Infact, you initially refuted the notion altogether that Lebron reduced teammates' assists until the stats were posted itt that showed a massive trend of Lebron reducing every starter's assists nearly across the board for 21 years... Of course, your counter to the fact that Lebron cannot produce a great team is to show that he went 1 for 4 with every all-star team that he formed (except the Allen miracle), thereby making my point exactly...

So you've provided a wonderful punching bag and I appreciate your service and providing me entertainment during the time that this thread is open.. My seminal claim that Lebron's skillset cannot produce great teams is historical record and the stats show exactly why, such as his high volume of unassisted buckets imposing spot-up roles that lower teammate assists, and therefore prevent elite team assists, chemistry and winning.

Also, Jamison being a MVP candidate when he picked up one vote in the award is hilarious.

I remember when David Lee picked up a vote for DPOTY. He was a force.

Kobe won more with Shaq than KD did with Curry and Klay.

Kobe won 2 chips with Pau, while KD couldn't win with many superior players like Westbrook, Harden, Kyrie and Booker.

Furthermore, Durant can't defeat max defensive attention - he can't carry the scoring load and therefore needs more help than Kobe.

1 vote is better than 0... Pau was a 1x all-star - he was literally nothing before joining Kobe and becoming perennial All-NBA (just like Pippen, Klay and Parker after they won titles).

And Jamison was overkill to really drive the point home because we already have Bosh and Love, were who were clear-cut better than Pau.

So the facts remain that Kobe won easily with Pau, while Lebron failed with similar 1 or 2x all-stars like Jamison, Zydrunas, Mo or Hughes, and then needed Pau-level guys at THIRD option... So it's quite clear that Lebron's weaker brand of ball needs more talent, but still generates weak chemistry regardless of cast and therefore perennial losers regardless of cast.

Past-prime Kobe???... C'maaaaan.... Kobe was basically money in his prime if you gave him an all-star, which is much better than Lebron's many debacles in his prime, such as 3 losses with multiple all-star teammates, record losses, goat chokes, or losing 4 straight 4th quarter leads to get swept, or losing as a -700 favorite as 1st option, and many more embarrassments with all-star teammates in his prime.

No, it isn't... Lebron, Westbrook, Luka and Harden can never dominate while having a high assisted rate (off-ball), just like John Stockton couldn't dominate by mostly dunking.. They just don't have the skillset, which is why no coach has ever run a high ball movement system with these guys.

Phil and Tex just got lucky to have a player that already had a highly-assisted skillset and off-guard.... Infact, MJ had a higher assisted rate before Phil by virtue of having an 80-90% assisted rate at North Carolina, or 80% of his buckets in the 88' 1st Round occurred with 1 or 0 dribbles - let that sink in - he was never off-ball to that extent in the triangle.

Off-guards like Klay or MJ simply have high assisted rates, so they fit in high ball movement systems, while the most dribble-intensive skillsets have high volume of unassisted buckets that leave teammates in spot-up roles, thereby reducing their assist capacity & ball movement.

Again, Tex and Phil really didn't know sh*t about Jordan's game and thought their system would muzzle his game - they were wrong because they didn't have the bird's eye view that we have that includes the terminology of "assisted rate" - this statistic allows us to get the right perspective on MJ's suitability for the triangle, but Phil and Tex didn't have this, hence their mistaken opinion that the triangle would muzzle his game.. They didn't realize he was perfect for a high ball movement system, but the results proved that he was - he went 6 for 6 almost immediately.

That's my point - coaches can't utilize that skill with Lebron because he doesn't have it - he lacks off-ball ability and high assisted rates to allow a ball movement system.

Phil and Tex simply thought the triangle would muzzle MJ and "get him to pass"

But again, almost no one understood back then (and now) that Jordan's high scoring levels were highly-assisted by teammates, so teammates grew massively and nearly beat a dynasty in 89' before Phil arrived.. Phil simply inherited a skyrocketing team that was on the cusp of the Finals and led by the GOAT, who was already growing everyone massively due to his off-guard/off-ball skillset.

The triangle was 100% unknown to the NBA fan until MJ put it on the map in the 90's.

This is the historical record.. It was a non-descript, funky offense that only 2 or 3 coaches in the world knew about because they invented it and used it at a couple low-level D1 schools.. It never won as a team's primary offense on the NBA level until MJ or his clone won 11 chips with it - then it never won again.

So history is pretty clear on this.. MJ and Kobe are the goats for being able to dominate and win with such an individually-restrictive offense that otherwise no one else could win with and that no one ever heard of before them, or since them..

We don't need MJ's assisted rates anymore than we need Shaq's dunk stats to know that he was a dunker - it would take someone 30 seconds to see that rookie Shaq was a great dunker just like it takes 30 seconds to see that rookie MJ or Klay were great off-ball players and off-guards.

Furthermore, someone did the play-by-play data to show that 80% of his points from his highest-scoring series ever occurred with zero or 1 dribbles in the 88' 1st Round - that reflects an amazing assisted rate.. That doesn't mean the Bulls were supposed to win in 1988 because not every ball movement team wins, but the winningest teams are always ball movement teams (with a highly-assisted leading scorer that allows high ball movement).

The triangle simply moved the ball in a superior way and ran the offense through the high post, so guys were catching the ball in spots where it's hard for the defense to load up on 1 guy - this means the defense has no chance against MJ if they can't load up on him as effectively, so he gets hot easily and forces the defense into dumb double-teams that leave guys open, etc.. it's a snowball effect.. And again, MJ's highly-assisted skillset allowed this kind of ball movement strategy.

No, my voice sounds a lot different.

Ultimately, a high assisted rate/skillset is required from the leading scorer of any dynasty, and a high assisted rate/skillset is required from any elite scorers of a dynasty.. Obviously, this doesn't mean that all teams who have a highly-assisted leading scorer will have a dynasty, but it is a requirement and a common thread in all dynasties.. This makes sense, due to the great fits/chemistry and facilitation of ball movement that highly-assisted players offer to teammates and teams.
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Yeah you always wake up when the dream gets good.

****ing hate it.

Can I wield Thor's hammer for just ten more seconds please.

In addition to the play-by-play data for Jordan's 2 biggest scoring series of his playoff career (posted previously), there's this video produced by the ACC Conference that shows MJ had the same assisted skillset in college:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1F1Hy1IHfqM

YouTube

Michael Jordan's Iconic Turnaround Jumper Started at UNC

NORTH CAROLINA JORDAN (FROM THE ACC VIDEO ABOVE):

"I've become adjusted to the 1-dribble pop-up jumpshot.. That's one of my favorite shots and the turnaround jumper also has to be one of my favorite shots.. Whenever I have my defender in that position, I feel that my scoring ability is a lot better"

^^^ So MJ was a highly-assisted player in college with a great turnaround jumper and 1-dribble pull-up already, which is part of the reason he stormed into the league at 28 ppg and then 37 ppg (goat scorer) in short order.

This highly-assisted skillset would prove to be the foundation that allowed the triangle to be run while still undertaking the goat scoring burden.. It's quite remarkable..

Again, Phil and Tex conflated goat scoring levels with ball-monopolization and figured the equal-opportunity triangle would shut down Jordan's shot volume and turn him into a passer... They actually thought they could do what you're saying and force MJ to change his playing style, but they simply didn't know about or have access to his assisted rate, which would've shown that they hit the jackpot with the kind of highly-assisted, goat scorer that the triangle requires..

Otherwise, if Jordan was a low-assisted ball-dominator like they essentially thought he was, then the triangle would've failed and Phil gets fired, or the more likely scenario is that Phil simply capitulates like every other coach of a ball-dominator and puts the ball in their hands (scuttles the triangle).

By virtue of having a dribbling, ball-domination and low-assisted skillset, guys like Luka, Harden or Lebron don't have off-ball and high-assisted skillsets, aka they stink at high-assisted skills like coming off screens compared to their wheelhouse of low-assisted dribbling & ball-dominant forays.

So it can't be "better for the team" to have the best players switch from skills that they're elite at, to skills they stink at... Bigs like Shaq don't start playing small forward because they stink at it, just like point guards don't start playing off-guard because they stink at it... So MJ's brief switch to point guard isn't the kind of general switch that I'm talking about and the only reason the Bulls were willing to try it briefly is because everyone knew that MJ would be the exception and goat at any position on the floor.

Indeed, he was the goat point guard despite being a 1st-timer at the position and many felt that he had the best post-game in the league by 91', which means that he demonstrated goat ability as a PG, off-guard and post player - this is the goat scoring diversity that produced the best fits and strategic capacity/coaching, which won the most with the least, i.e. produced the best teams ever with the least all-star help ever.

That's my point - coaches can't utilize that skill with Lebron because he doesn't have it - he lacks off-ball ability and high assisted rates to allow a ball movement system, or dynasty/great team that mostly wins for a material stretch, like 5 years.
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It's common knowledge and INTELLIGENCE that michael jordan is a goat-level post player, but it isn't common intelligence that Lebron is:

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Only MJ demonstrated goat ability as an off-guard, point guard and post player - this goat scoring diversity fit with all players and systems to allow the best teams ever with the least all-star help

Should anyone be surprised that the goat brand of ball is winning with Heild

unfolding events continue to support basketball doctrine and bball 101 about ball movement and highly-assisted players producing better chemistry to win with less..

Having a skillset that produces better chemistry to win with less is why Curry is better than Lebron and always has been - I'm glad that I figured this out years ago, albiet late in 2021 (still before Curry won with Wiggins/Poole)
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09' Mo Will vs #4 SRS Magic........ 18 on 38%....... #3 team defense..... lost

89' Pippen vs #1 SRS Cavs........... 15 on 40%...... #11 team defense.... won
97' Pippen vs #4 SRS Heat........... 16 on 39%........ #4 team defense.... won
98' Pippen vs #4 SRS Pacers........ 17 on 39%........ #9 team defense.... won
98' Pippen vs #3 SRS Jazz............. 16 on 41%........ #9 team defense.... won

Lebron can't beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from sidekick because he's too ball-dominant at carry-job volume, so he cannot carry the scoring load vs top teams and needs all-time scoring help.. Otoh, MJ could drop 40 while the ball moves, so he would carry the scoring load vs top teams and win with much less help.

[quote=ILikeWateredDownSports]

MJ is the only guy that might be better than Lebron

[/quote]

Statistical Facts Regarding Lebron's Inferiority to Jokic, Curry, Kobe, MJ, Bird and Others

At carry-job volume, Lebron's high volume of unassisted buckets (low-assisted rate) is too ball-dominant to beat top teams, so he cannot carry the scoring load and needs all-time scoring help... Specifically, in addition to never carrying weak help over top teams (never beating a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from sidekick), Lebron never carried the scoring load on the championship level, so he never defeated max defensive attention and needed equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention (more help)..

In contrast to Lebron's high-scoring ball-dominance and low-assisted skillset, highly-assisted skillsets like jumpshooters or bigs drop 40 while the ball moves, so they maintain sufficient brand at carry-job volumes and therefore beat top teams with less help.... In addition to carrying the scoring load to win with less, the highly-assisted skillsets of bigs and jumpshooters allow great chemistry/teams, aka "dynasties" that mostly win for a material stretch like 5 years.. Accordingly, all the dynasties in history were led by highly-assisted skillsets (Russell, Kareem, MJ, Duncan, Curry, Kobe/Shaq), while the perennial losers were low-assisted skillsets, aka ball-dominators (Luka, Oscar, Lebron, Westbrook, Harden, etc).

Ultimately, I'm getting ahead of the game and adding Jokic to my top 10 - my top 13 is ranked in order of the skillsets that produce the best chemistry to produce the best teams and win with less, such as the teams they were given (organically): 1. Jordan 2. Kobe 3. Bird 4. Curry 5. Russell 6. Wilt 7. Kareem 8. Duncan 9. Shaq 10. Jokic 11. Magic 12. Lebron 13. Oscar... If I'm not mistaken, Jokic could become the 1st player to lead the PER/BPM//VORP/WS48 for 5 straight years - he's also making a winner out of Westbrook.
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No one expected Lebron to give up after Year 7 and team-up with opponents thereafter, so stop saying he met every expectation because it's a massive lie.

Giving up on the team that drafted you and deciding to team up with opponents is the DEFINITION of failing expectation, just like being lottery with the East all-star center in 2005, or losing as a -700 favorite in 2009, or having the goat choke in 2011, or losing 7 times with favored rosters (preseason favorite or homecourt), or losing 3 times with multiple all-star teammates, or losing 4 straight 4th quarter leads to get swept, or being lottery in his prime in 2019, or record loss in 2014, or falling from preseason favorite to underdog or loser for 6 straight years from 11-16' (except the Allen miracle) - these are all underachieving the expectation!!!

The issue is that Klutch Sports got angry one day on a conference call with the media and famously yelled "Lebron has met every expectation and you will say this on all your sports shows!!!"... And the rest is history - the spineless media got in line and the public was fooled... So enjoy your fraud, but it's pathetic that Lebron's yearly catastrophic losses such as gentlemen sweeps in the WCF or 1st Round are treated like ADDITIONS to a goat case.. It's pure fraud and WWE.

And we know that underachieving the expectation is a skillset issue.. High-scoring point guard skillsets have a high volume of unassisted buckets that leave teammates standing around in spot-up roles, and this weak chemistry underachieves favored rosters as a standard.. The spot-up roles lower teammates' assists, which prevents elite ball movement and team assists - the common thread in all of Lebron's playoff losses for the last 10 years is deficits in team assists.. He simply cannot play a high ball movement brand, so he gets beat BY these brands (Nuggets, Spurs, Warriors, Mavs, Magic).