2/3. 4BP. JJ on flop 887r facing a shove

i dont see the point of calling pf if you arent going to call here. you dont have set mining odds. did you expect him to check and give up with AK with a little more than pot left on a rag board? nobody does that.

GTO just open folds JJ from LJ like half the time, and then folds more than half the time facing a (larger sized) 4 bet, and then it just pure folds this flop.

This is up against a gto V who is showing up with hands like KQ taking this lind so its not super likely V is playing looser than gto in this spot.

I think i already said this in another thread, but 3 betting from EP/mp against EP with JJ is a sort of rough spot, obviously this is a famously difficult hand to play, so im not quite sure if cold calling and it going 5 ways is going to do any better, but idk, not gonna second guess your 3 bet, just worth considering that youre in much better shape when you 3 bet vs CO with like 99 than when you 3 bet vs utg+1 with JJ.

I think fold to 4 bet/fold to flop jam. As stated above you dont have odds to setmine, and i think you gotta just fold like every flop.

vs reg I mix 3bet and flat 50/50 pre, vs player like you described I nearly 3bet 100% for value/isolation.

1st 4bet I give him enough credit to fold JJ with this stacksizes, but if I call pre I also call shove on this flop.

We need 35%, if he shove QQ+/AK you have 40%, obv quite optimistic that he 4bet and shove AK here all the time, but on the other side a lot of players will not jam 175 into 150 with KK+, so 35%+ equity could be possible.

I feel the contradiction between the pre and flop plays if I fold flop as well.

Really? I am glad to learn about that.

On the other hand any player will think about how to milk more chips on this flop with AA, or even KK, instead of moving all-in. So, can we have to discount AA/KK a bit?

Now, how comfortable does it become for Hero to call the flop shove?

Me too. If he bets small I may call the flop. I noticed the min 4bet pre usually means attracting a call.

Could you elaborate this?

If you've never seen him 3bet before (or 4bet) I would fold because as a default a 4bet in 2/3 from an unknown, who was an early position open raiser, is gonna be a nutted hand like 90% of the time (AA/KK/QQ and sometimes AK but mostly not).

If however you've seen him 3bet often and you've seen his range is wider than premium hands, I would be more inclined to call because if he's 3betting light pre with hands like AJ/AQ, KQ, KJs, etc., he probably thinks you're doing that as well so he might be included to 4bet us lighter. If he's never 3bet at all I would just fold.

I agree with the premise of not calling pf if you are not going to call here, but I think to call pre here you have to believe AK in his range, and I think the default for your average rec at low stakes fro 4 bet is just KK+.

You can fold flop. He's jamming $200 into $150. We only have $75 invested in the pot. If he's bluffing with AK, good for him.

ETA - I probably fold to the 4B pre, when he's only starting out $270 deep, and min-clicks it. He just always has a better hand here. If he had AK, he would have flat called or jammed pre, not min-click 4B.

Even more, according to GTO, JJ facing a UTG open has 0 ev. Against a perfect UTG, JJ in the LJ is just a 3bet-light bluff. Against a 4bet by a GTO UTG, JJ is a pure fold. Of course, a V who calls a UTG open with T9o is playing much wider than GTO. And I'm skeptical that we can ever really apply GTO to live no-limit cash. On the other hand, GTO 4bets much wider than your average live V. So I'm definitely folding JJ to the 4bet preflop.

I saw youre looking into gto, and i wouldnt worry too much about the part where it shows how much EV certain things are worth. First thing, the EV indicates the EV loss or gain from the individual hand, but your range gains EV wholistically, so like AA wouldnt gain the same amount of EV if you were to ONLY 3 bet AA, so folding out all your 0 ev 3 bets would lead to less profit on your EV+ 3 bets. Also, anywhere that it mixes, itll say the EV is the same for each option, but thats only because their opponent is perfectly balanced, and even something as simple as “mixing errors” in your opponent (much less actual errors) can massively sway the EV in one way or the other.

So basically for “0 ev” decisions, that doesnt mean its actually 0 ev and can safely be ignored, it means if you look at UTG’s open and you expect your opponent to be raising WIDER than gto, its an EV+ 3 bet, if you think they are NARROWER than gto its an EV- 3 bet assuming all else is equal.

You also can gain ev with errors on later streets of course, the ol’ “skill advantage”.

I default to 3b pre here, but could see myself flatting occasionally versus a player that splits their range (i.e. if V usually limps pre and only raises strong hands). I don't really see how open folding can be good in a low-stakes live game -- players are going to play so face up behind you that you can basically snap fold profitably facing any additional pressure.

Per the above point, I would fold to the 4b basically every time. They just don't have enough bluffs for JJ to be a profitable call.

AP, I think you can fold the flop facing the overbet shove. V probably just has KK.