LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

Lebron can't beat top teams like that and never has, so it's AD-ball against the top teams.

And no one cares about the play of a 39 year old because it's nothing compared to him at 29, or any other all-time great.. It might be the best ball-domination that we've seen for a 39+year old, but it ranks about 150th all-time otherwise (or worse).

Also, the league has evolved (or devolved) into a format where a player with that many shots or touches cannot be held down - 20% of the league will get 30/10/10 if the ball is put in their hands to run today's standard "down-hill" and spaced floor format.. The beginner format achieves pretty stats but gets exposed in international formats, which now produce the best players... People don't realize that Lebron, KD and Curry are great because they didn't grow up in today's format, but they're the last of American great players because the beginner format that Adam Silver/Lebron cooked up CANNOT and DOES NOT produce great players (and allows anyone to dominate).
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Stats classes too and many finance classes.... Compared to you, my credentials are unheard of and a different level in both hoops and books

Same as Bronny, and that's good enough for the league in today's beginner format and the soft game that Lebron and Silver created (and which no longer produces the best players in the world).

We all know more about basketball than they did because it's 2024 and we have the benefit of 35 years of hindsight and modern data/information - they didn't even know what "assisted rate" was or have that statistic, so they thought the ball movement of the triangle would muzzle MJ and stop him from being scoring champ!!!... lmao!!!.. What a bunch of fools amirite???... 😃... MJ proceeded to lead the league in scoring for 7 of 7 seasons in the triangle.. smh

It's bad if the player's assisted rate was increased to the 85-90% by a ball-dominator, while their normal game and max production capability occurs at lower assisted rates..

So it's bad to turn Bosh's 60% assisted rate to nearly 80% - that reduced his production capacity and therefore the team's... The higher assisted rate gives players a more spot-up role than their game can handle or typically has, which prevents teammate development or good fits/chemistry, and therefore underperforms favored rosters... This includes Lebron losing more times with preseason favorites than anyone in history, and also in the Finals.

Oh jeez stat classes too? And many finance classes? That’s intimidating. All the smart kids in my class took calculus. I can tell you’re really good at probability and statistics too based on your posts in this thread, so it all checks out.

Wait a minute. The rest of your post is fascinating and full of advanced knowledge but this statement is difficult to parse. Bronny only played one year of college ball. And it doesn’t look like his team, USC, played North Carolina that year.

What was your stat line when you played UNC fallguy? You can answer directly with numbers.

I don’t think many people without massive dysfunctional egos would claim to “know more” about basketball than a coach who has won 11 NBA championships, just because nba.com is tracking a new statistic that involves dividing two numbers. In my opinion of course. But I didn’t play basketball against UNC so… wait I forgot that you haven’t answered what your stat line was in that game. What was your stat line? Just for transparency of course, and to show us how much advanced knowledge of basketball you must have. Don’t worry about coming off as bragging — lay it on us.

Can you show how you calculated what a player’s normal game and max production capability is, and what their base optimal assist rate is?

You can use your calculus and statistics skills to answer this if you want, but it’s important to show your work.

You never went to grad school or played any sport at any material level... I did, hence me educating you on the game and how to interpret the stats.

Be grateful that you're learning how things really work from an analyst and player, as opposed to believing the journalism majors on TV

Love's max capability was 26/13/4 and his assisted rate was 55-65% at this production level, but it rose to 80% under Lebron at a much lower production level

No calculus needed.. We can do this with every player - we can see what their normal assisted rate is at their max production capability, and then see how the assisted rate increases alongside Lebron while the production craters.

Lebron simply reduces everyone's assists and increases their assisted rate, so it's statistical fact that he imposes spot-up roles and the ensuing weak teammate development/chemistry underperforms favored rosters more than anyone in history.. (i.e. Lebron has more losses with preseason favorites than anyone in history, and also more Finals losses.. He also has more losses as the favorite, all-star teammates or top seeds than Curry, Kobe or MJ)

Btw, I appreciate you guys for making all these arguments so vetted and rock solid - the most vetted post is post #22810

You’re probably right. Want to take Tien’s bet? The offer is still on the table from me — I’ll arrange sending my university transcripts to a neutral arbiter.

I don’t feel it’s appropriate to make any statements about my educational background with an open bet on the table. I wouldn’t want you to lose out on this easy money opportunity. Calculus, finance classes, and stats are very advanced. You’re a shoe in. I feel bad for Tien even offering to bet you on this.

Oh yeah I’m taking notes!

Sorry, maybe I wasn’t clear but I asked for you to show how you calculated overall maximum productivity compared to assisted fg% and to show your work. You obviously have to adjust for team level effects. You can’t just list a player’s numbers and state that’s his theoretical maximum, or that his numbers dropped due to a change in assisted fg% without adjusting for other effects using standard statistical techniques. That’s really dumb, but you knew that because you’ve taken stats.

You could plot the function of maximum productivity vs assisted fg% after adjusting for confounding factors and find the global maximum. I know, super basic calculus but still calculus technically. Nowhere near your level of course. But, this is all assuming you actually determined that function in some analytical way and didn’t just make it up. Which I’m sure you didn’t. You took calculus! And stats!

But anyway, I’m actually less interested in the above. All that is trivially easy for someone with your math background and I’m sure you just haven’t gotten around to posting your analysis yet. I’m mostly curious what your stat line was when you played against UNC. Could you answer that question?

I'll give credit to Tex and Phil because they had the right objective of elite spacing and ball movement to maximize chemistry and teammate performance, but they were dead wrong that this approach was somehow a problem for Jordan's game..

Again, there was no way to describe the fact that Jordan's buckets were "assisted" - that terminology didn't exist back then, so the insight on Jordan was only that he scored goat amounts and therefore didn't pass enough.. Phil and Tex were a lot like today's media and fans that ignore the concept of assisted rate as well..

These are just facts - they were right about pursuing ball movement, but wrong about Jordan's game - they didn't fully understand it and ultimately underestimated him significantly... And it's interesting because if Jordan was a massive ball-dominator with low assisted rate, then the triangle WOULD have been the massive struggle and muzzled Jordan like they anticipated.

Set up the bet.

But there's no need for transcripts.. You just need to post your Masters degree.

There's a massive sample of Lebron's entire pool of teammates - they all saw increases in their assisted rates and corresponding declines in production.

So the data is definitive - it's statistical fact that Lebron reduces his teammates playmaking (APG), and increases their play-finishing (assisted rate), and this reduction to spot-up roles reduces his teammates' production.

Post your hoops stats.. Then I'll post mine

^^^ this kind of stuff never happened for Jordan (underachieving expectation), yet these catastrophic losses and sweeps with all-star teammates are considered ADDITIONS to lebron's imaginary goat case

Accordingly, there's never been a bigger fraud in sports history... Unlike Jokic, MJ or Curry, Lebron never learned the chemistry to win with normal rosters of 1 franchise player and therefore never learned how to win... Instead, he opted for super-teams of 3 franchise players, which is talent-based winning and this means the excuse for every loss is needing more talent.. It's pathetic.

Hey Tien, if you’re still reading I am being serious. If there is interest and room for a reasonable bet I’ll get in on it too.

I insist we send in the transcripts fallguy, that way the actual math courses can be compared. Transcripts will include the degree conferred as well, of course.

What? You’re just making a statement here. I am asking you to show how you analytically determined that the increase in assisted rate CAUSED a decrease in production, and that it wasn’t a team change effect. Or the effect of playing with the highest career scorer of all time (thereby using up possessions). You know, incredibly basic statistical adjustments that even a monkey could do.

I already told you I didn’t play against North Carolina so my point total and the rest of my stat line was precisely zero.

Now it’s your turn: what was your point total and stat line when you played against North Carolina?

It isn't about math courses because a 6th grader can be explained assisted rate... It's about providing insight into the numbers and using the numbers to validate the eye test, which requires broader intelligence in addition to the understanding of math.

For example, the whole reason that I brought up assisted rate is because these debates always start with me saying that Lebron dominates the ball too much, and you guys respond by saying that Lebron doesn't dominate the ball... So then I statistically-prove that he does by using stats like Lebron's assisted rate on field goals and time of possession (hold-time), or teammates' assists, assisted rate, and hold-time.. I corroborate Lebron's impact on these stats by showing the impact of similar players like Harden, Luka, Westbrook, or SGA - they lower teammates' assists as well because their own skillset is low-assisted (rare assist targets) with too many unassisted buckets that leave teammates standing around in spot-up roles..

Again this is a meld of the eye test and the aforementioned stats that indicate degree of ball-dominance.

It's like you're asking me to show you that 35 MPH is faster than 25 MPH, lol..

Basketball is like physics, so there's an inverse correlation between a change in assisted rate and assists - if a player's assisted rate increases (more spot-ups), then their opportunity to get assists declines and their assists decline (lower production)... Their scoring also declines unless they're already elite shooters that can handle the change in shot allocation to more of a spot-up role.

To summarize, Lebron reduced everyone's scoring and assists by turning them into spot-up shooter (increasing their assisted rate), as they stand around while he scores a high volume of unassisted buckets (low assisted rate, rare assist target)... Otoh, jumpshooters like Curry or Jordan were great assist targets with healthy assisted rates, so they increased everyone's assists, thereby allowing high-assist teams and the best brand of ball ("dynasty-ball").

fallguy,

The humiliation you suffered from not being quite as good at basketball as some of those other guys who could dribble and pass better than you must have been quite intense for you to go on a decades-long campaign like this. Instead of writing all this nonsense that merely points to the depth of your suffering and trauma, why not talk more about what happened? Who did what to you? Must have been some deeply degrading **** given your behavior.

This is the bet when you said Matt R. didn't even do algebra.

Now you are bitching out and demanding a master's degree in mathematics? What's next? The field's medal?

Lol at bragging at taking a few calculus and finance classes.

I think people with half a brain could do it.

If you go back to trainwreckog's posting 11 year's ago (fallguy), he was normal until Ray Allen's shot, and then fallguy went on a non stop posting rampage since then.

All of this traces back to Ray Allen.

You said Steph Curry was most overrated player of all time in 2021.

You then said Steph Curry was top 5 player all time a few months later in 2021.

Your entire posting history is immediately discounted to 0 just from that alone.

I've been saying Lebron stunk since 2011.. I remember telling my sister specifically during the Finals "this guy can't operate out of the triple-threat position"....

My sister responded with "what's triple-threat?"...

And I responded with "it's when a player has the ball but hasn't dribbled yet - so it's the pre-dribble, stationary position.. Look at him - he has no jab step, no head fake, no cadence to set up the blow-by - he's clueless out of the triple-threat, lol... Heck, you should've kept playing sis because you're better than him from a pre-dribble stationary position... what a bum"

He proceeded to trick off the series and get so mind-****** that there's a famous pic where he has a panicked look while posting up a 5-footer Jason Barea... wtf did he look so panicked for?.. the guys was SHOOK... I was done with him from that point forward and that was 2011... By 2013, I knew he was a fraud and all my predictions for his career about his trash brand of ball underachieving favored talent came true - the first post that I made about Lebron lowering his teammates' assists was 2014.. So I've been on this train for a while now - lebron's skillset is bad at teammate development and chemistry, so he needs more help/talent and the bad chemistry still underachieves this talent"

If you come out to Vegas, I'm willing to play you 1-on-1 on camera and post it on youtube and this thread - I guarantee that we'll get all the highlights we need from that game and we can post it on here.

That's the best way to confirm my skills.

I won't entertain anything else...

the Curry Enlightening provides credibility to my posting by showing that I'm not rigid in my views and they're open to being proven wrong...

it strengthens all my lebron posts, which have never been proven wrong.

He's bluffing and would never show his transcripts - he's simply read my previous posting and deduced that I wouldn't post mine, so he's going with that.

I doubt he's taken any graduate classes at all based on his offer to "provide his transcripts" and the way he said it sounds like something an undergrad would say.. He also writes at a low level, gets angry and curses unintelligently - then he gets disingenuous but unaware that it's obvious... Based on these factors and others, I doubt he's sitting on a master's degree.

Maybe he's a math major in undergrad or something and thinks that provides more math classes or better analytical ability than my higher education level... But again, who cares about math because a 6th grader can understand assisted rate... A broader analytical ability is needed to provide insight into things like finance, basketball, economics, or anything.

Before Matt started posting itt, he didn't know how to demonstrate with stats that a player dominates the ball - he would probably point to usage if someone asked him whether a certain player was ball-dominant... Now he knows much better, and so do you if you've been following along... If not, here's a brief synopsis for the layman.

If our eye test tells is that a player dribbles too much and leaves teammates standing around in spot-up roles, we can validate our eye test statistically by seeing if the player scores on their own a lot (dribbling), or whether they're assisted by teammates (little or no dribbling).. A low-assisted rate indicates a high volume of unassisted buckets and therefore more dribbling... With the dribbling validated, we can now validate whether this dribbling is excessive by virtue of imposing spot-up roles upon teammates like our eye test indicates.. To validate the spot-up roles, we can see if there was a decline in teammates' assists (playmaking) and increase in their assisted rate (play-finishing, spot-up roles).. In Lebron's case, every starter saw a decline in assists and increase in assisted rate (imposing spot-up roles) alongside him, shown previously itt here.. Finally, we can see if the lower assists from teammates impacts the team assists, and we see that it does - high-scoring ball-dominators like Luka, Lebron and Harden lower teammates' assists, so they don't have high-assist teams, while getting beat and out-assisted BY ball movement teams (Nuggets, Warriors, Spurs, Mavs, Magic).. This weak brand of ball and chemistry underperforms favored talent the most ever, such as the most losses ever with the preseason favorite, or in the Finals, and many more losses with homecourt, all-star teammates or top seeds.

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Complete Summary of the Fraud for the Layman

By opting for teams with 3 franchise players, Lebron never learned the chemistry required to win with normal rosters of 1 franchise player like Curry, Jokic, and MJ did.. They learned elite chemistry and how to win, while he learned how to team-hop and talent-based winning (all-star team strategy)... So that's the fraud - a so-called goat candidate never learned how to win and develop chemistry, so he waltzes around the league with a talent-based approach and all-star team strategy.. The absence of a chemistry objective causes the players and media to blame all losses on needing more help/talent (talent-based winning).

Furthermore, Lebron descended into talent-based winning because his skillset can't produce great chemistry... Specifically, high-scoring dribblers, or any high-scoring ball-dominant style has a high volume of unassisted buckets that leaves teammates standing around in spot-up roles - this yields weak teammate development, chemistry and perennial losers with every cast.. The spot-up roles also lower teammate assists across the board, so the team cannot become a high assist team like the teams that beat Lebron (Nuggets, Spurs, Warriors, Mavs, Magic).. The common thread in all of Lebron's playoff losses for the last 10 years is deficits in team assists.

It matters that high-scoring ball-dominators have a weak brand of ball and chemistry because it underachieves favored talent more than any other skillset.. Specific examples of underachieving favored rosters include Lebron having the most losses ever with the preseason favorite and in the Finals, while also having more losses with homecourt, all-star teammates and top seeds than Kobe, Curry or Jordan.. And more 4-0 sweeps/record losses as well.

In contrast to the perennial losers produced by a Lebron or Luka's high volume of unassisted buckets (low-assisted ball-ball-domination), jumpshooters or bigs have high assisted rates, so they produce great ball movement, chemistry and all the dynasties (Russell, Kareem, MJ, Duncan, Curry, Kobe/Shaq).

Finally, unlike expert jumpshooters such as Curry or MJ, Lebron can't score 40 while the ball moves, so he lacks sufficient brand at carry-job volume to beat top teams and therefore needs all-time scoring help.. Specifically, he never carried weak help over top teams (never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick), and he also needed equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention, so he never defeated max defensive attention (never carried scoring load in Finals).. Lebron's inability to carry the scoring load requires more help, such as 3rd options that are better than Pau or Klay... So it's clear that Lebron's weaker brand and chemistry not only prevents great teams, but it prevents carrying the scoring load to win with less as well - these are clear cut reasons why Kobe, Curry and of course Jordan are better than Lebron (their skillsets produce better chemistry to produce better teams and win with less).

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Jordan vs "Next Jordan" at 23 Years Old

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There's a lot of fraud going on out there folks, such as the tyson-paul fight, kamala campaign, the "next jordan" (above), or the Lebron fake goat debate and manufactured career (described in previous post above).

Takeaway: "waltzes around the league."

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Jordan vs "Next Jordan" at 23 Years Old

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You guys won't accept fraud from the media or Hollywood celebrities that tell you how to vote because you know about life and politics.

But when it comes to sports, you'll let this same media defraud you and sell you a bill of goods, such as Ant being the "next Jordan", or a spotty-shooting ball-dominator that never learned how to win and whose suboptimal skillset perennially-loses with every cast is a goat candidate.

So you guys are complete suckers at sports... :shrug: