(1/3NL) Pocket 8s first hand at the table

I don’t like the 3bet to begin with.

Bad hand to 3! with. Not many draws to semibluff with. That he showed his hand to his friend is a tell that he has a strong hand. Try to hit a set and stack him.

I would just call pre. AP flop is too big

The speech stuff is interesting, if you take it at face value (which you probably shouldn't). What hand does someone flat call a 3b OOP and plans to x/r any flop? Probably not a premium pp. I guess a mid PP or suited connectors/ 2 Broadways type hand. Or he's playing 72o, lucky him

Again, if you take it at face value which you shouldn't with no prior info. Just fold

Just call pre. Zero reason to 3bet this hand, especially vs an unknown. As played, check flop and now fold.

Welcome to the forums. Unfortunately, the 3-bet with 88 is pure spew, especially given Villain showing cards to his neighbor. In addition, I have no idea why you would willfully walk into a flop c/r with a hand that can't call a large raise.

He could easily have A7s/76s/99/TT/JJ and maybe QQ.

Cool, thanks for the feedback yall

AP, what’s a good size on the flop?

Zero, since you know he plans to x/r.

I did know he had plans to check raise. My flop bet was for value.

After calling pre, I figured he had 22-QQ ATo+, 56s+, maybe some one gappers like 97s, T8s, a few J7s+. Discounting AK, KK, AA but still a few combos.

Is that an optimistic range?

like 5% of players i play with have this opening range pf.

Yeah, in a 1/2 game, they tend to limp and only raise like 99+/AQ+ or something like that. Some regs or similar types will raise whatever they play, so some suited connectors, etc. Some will raise small with nonpremium hands.

88 is a hand that plays better as a flat than a 3-bet anyway.
If you want to 3-bet light, usually you should use suited cards. It is OK mostly 3-betting like QQ+, because they call 3-bets anyway and you want to be ahead of a usually tight raising range.

You are probably behind the raiser's range. You are better off seeing a flop multiway than isolating versus a strong range.

In general, this hand is just a mess. At low stakes, maybe play more ABC and pick your spots to be aggressive.

When someone shows their friend their hand, you get a ton of info by looking at their friend, because they dont hide their tells.

I also just dont think its super likely for someone to look down at AA KK and show their buddy. People wanna show off, like that they made a loose raise.

The flop, you think the guy is sitting there with QQ? He check raise overbets the turn, you fold, and showed his buddy how to blow someone off their equity when he actually has it? No way. Its over cards. Im most likely calling here, but i would have wayyyyy more info than what was posted here in a hand where someone shows his friend his hand.

We're not deep enough to 3B pre with 88, especially not over a UTG open from a totally unknown opponent. Just flat call.

If you know he's planning to check raise, just check back. If you must bet, then just bet super-small.

I wouldn't necessarily think he's planning to check raise with his entire range, mostly with bluffs. I would be more likely to think he's got a strong hand that isn't worried about what the flop may be.

As played, we beat no value hands, only bluffs. His $10 open, showing his buddy his cards, his little speech, and his insane over-bet would lead me to fold now.

Maybe occasionally he does this with two overs, but he sounds pretty bad, so I think he's just playing very face up, and this is almost always thick value.

I did call. just looking for discussion on the line, but happy to share results if people are interested

IÂ’m a young-ish guy that just 3-bet first hand sitting down. I think heÂ’s assigning me big cards (more than JJ+) as a range, and I think he thinks that I have the ability to fold good but non-nutted hands & some semblance of understanding which boards are good for me and him (based on his comment)

I play in Vegas and way more than 1/20 people can be assigned this.

$10 is a small opening for this game in this room. Generally. Especially being fully OOP vs the field

The issue is that I have zero information on this hand and this player. IÂ’ve just unracked and taken my coat off. This could be his normal size regardless of position & hand strength.

For that reason, and that weÂ’re only 100bb, it makes sense that flatting is optimal. For sure.

IÂ’ve found that players make more mistakes in 3b pots Â… and more expensive ones. Here weÂ’ve got a perceived weak open and a flat call. With the extra dead money and being in position, for me, it feels like a slam dunk 3b! (Which is why I started this thread)

AP, super small on the flop makes sense. Maybe this size is too big for the broadways & FDs to continue.

I resonate with this and is in-line with how I felt at the table. His little speech made me think he was going shove *any* connection with the board — whether it be for value or as a semi-bluff or just low cards vs what I could (should) be 3betting with.

So, what was the reveal?

Agree that $10 is kind of a small open, but he might have been opening to a small size hoping to induce a light 3B. Ordinarily I'd expect someone doing that to 4B with their big PP's, but he might think he's playing sneaky by slow-playing. There are a ton of bad low-stakes rec-fish who will play big PP's this way.

Generally, when people let friends sweat their hands pre, it's usually going to be a stronger hand. If they were bluffing, or making a loose call, they wouldn't want to risk their friend giving off a tell. The fact that he made that comment to his friend would make me more likely to check back to let him bluff the turn, or otherwise bet small with a plan to call the x/r and evaluate the turn.

It's doubtful he's check-jamming a worse hand for value. Even against two overs with two spades, we're basically flipping here. If you snapped him off and your hand held up, okay, but I think this hand would play better as a flat call pre, and a continue if V c-bets for a reasonable size.

Yeah I think weÂ’re crushed if this is for value. No one turns 33-66 into a bluff here .. so itÂ’s 7x, 22, QQ+.

I think 99-JJ x/c a lot here.

And weÂ’re flipping a lot vs his bluffs. Two overs with spade draws.

But given the speech I thought that a lot of his range was more low suited connectors/gappers and less broadways.

I bet to induce on this board *because* it was paired. He now has less 7x and zero two pairs.

So less value combos in his range, speech made me think he wants to see low cards vs a 3bet Â…

—

Flatting pre and playing IP post flop definitely makes sense as a more standard and probably higher EV line. Especially vs an unknown UTG raiser.

I err on the side of aggression, preferring to keep my ranges uncapped. I think it leads to people playing straightforward against me, but it also leads to punts. Focusing right now on learning to harness it & pick my spots better.

IÂ’m a fairly big winner at the stakes but have swings to and fro that IÂ’d like to curb.

——

Reveal was 96ss

Seriously? 96ss?

So...he's terrible, obviously. With no other observations, I'd be tempted to tag him as a whale or a maniac, and adjust accordingly.

I actually wonder if he meant for you to hear him talk about check-raising, in order to buy himself a free turn card, hoping you'll check back. If that was your read, I didn't get that from the OP, but if I thought that, then I'd probably feel better about betting the flop as you did.

It just sucks if he spikes a 9 or a spade. We're only about a 60% favorite here, so we're not out of the woods when we call.

“Hehe hey look 69”

“Gonna shove to show him how big my dick is”

You can usually call with like AQ here. Like i say, i tend to have the absolute most reads in these situations.

Never ever show someone your cards in a live hand. Doug polk made that mistake

this seems like some sort of brag/dick waving post. congrats i guess?

your play loses money vs 95% of the population in my game. congrats on finding a rare instance where it doesnt.

No, it wasn’t meant to be.

I’m trying to learn and was interested in what the forum had to say about it.

I intend to ask other questions about hands when I feel comfortable.

I’d appreciate that you interact with my posts with constructive thoughts.

Is this a punt? Maybe. A majority of people responding seem to think so. I’m inclined to agree after the discussion we’ve had.

Let’s come together on thinking about the game and spots.

You said earlier that that 5% of your player pool has that range … what’s a more likely range that you assign to your villains?

You’re overplaying 88 😃

I think your play is ok, I’d rather set mine vs utg. His comment is weird with 96.

Lmao, come on, there are plenty of bragging posts on here and this aint one of them.

Look, i dont think you can say for sure one way or the other from a forum post, and its fine for people to say this should be a fold, because it probably is in a vacuum. BUT, anyone who doesnt know you can get MASSIVE tells when someone shows their hand are people who simply arent looking at their opponents as often as they oughta. Someone showing friends their cards is rare but hand for hand allows for probably the most profitable read in all of poker

Forget the specifics of this hand. I encourage everyone in these forums to do just one session (obviously you cant do this every session) where they put their phone entirely away, not talk to anyone, and STARE at all their opponents (including in hands you arent in). Dont just look a little, use 100% of your focus on it. You dont need to know fancy reads like “looking up and to the right” or whatever, just look at their face, and pay attention to their timings of all their actions (including preflop) and guess how strong their hand is. I wont need to convince you, because you will be shocked at how accurately you can estimate someone to be on 2nd or 3rd pair, or slowplaying a set, even put someone on a strong or weak preflop hand. Youve been looking at expressions your whole life, just recognize how they are feeling.

Its not like its every hand, but you will know with 100% certainty occasionally. And my point is, in a hand where someone exposes their hand, the tells on the neighbor is amplified x100.