LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

This certainly goes a lot deeper than that. His posting history points to other players humiliating him, perhaps even off the court, but it might even go back much further. Maybe it's his relationship with his mom or something. Maybe Lebron reminds him of his mom's bf that was abusive towards him.

I mean he's constructed an entire fictional universe just to be able to declare an imaginary triumph over his enemies in his own mind and in his own corner of the internet. It's barely coherent and frankly embarrassing but that's still an accomplishment for someone with his intellect, a lifelong pursuit requiring tremendous dedication.

Sure everyone is laughing at him, but he still gets to confidently and repeatedly declare victory, blocking out the echoes of the previous humiliation. What void does that fill? Just how bad was it that this is what he has to do to cope and to avoid reliving it?

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[url=https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html#all_shooting]Kobe's Career[/url]

Percentage of shots that are 2-pointers............ 78.8
Percentage of shots that are 3-pointers............ 21.2

Assisted Rate on 2-pointers................................. 35.6
Assisted Rate on 3-pointers................................. 66.9

Career Assisted Rate................................................ 42.2 (normal for a SG, so teammates have normal opportunity to assist alongside Kobe)[/I]


[url=https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#all_shooting]Lebron's Career[/url]

Percentage of shots that are 2-pointers............ 76.3
Percentage of shots that are 3-pointers............ 23.7

Assisted Rate on 2-pointers................................. 35.4
Assisted Rate on 3-pointers................................. 50.1

Career Assisted Rate................................................ 38.9 (lowest-ever for a forward BY FAR, so teammates have less opportunity to assist than normal)[/I]


[url=https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html#2000-2013-sum:shooting]Prime Kobe (2000-2013)[/url]

Percentage of shots that are 2-pointers............ 78.8
Percentage of shots that are 3-pointers............ 21.2

Assisted Rate on 2-pointers................................. 35.6
Assisted Rate on 3-pointers................................. 66.9

Career Assisted Rate............................................... 41.5 (normal for a SG, so teammates have normal opportunity to assist alongside Kobe)[/I]


[url=https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#2006-2021-sum:shooting]Prime Lebron (2006-2021)[/url]

Percentage of shots that are 2-pointers............ 76.8
Percentage of shots that are 3-pointers............ 23.2

Assisted Rate on 2-pointers................................. 33.3
Assisted Rate on 3-pointers................................. 46.1

Career Assisted Rate................................................ 36.3 (lowest-ever for a forward BY FAR, so teammates have less opportunity to assist than normal)[/I]

What a delusion and saltiness just because I proved wrong all the narratives that you learned from TV and exposed the Lebron fraud that has been perpetrated on the public.

My posts aren't opinion and are based in stats, so I'm literally informing you guys of stats that you hadn't considered before... You guys proceed to take the education personally and start whining about how much better I am at basketball than you, and better-educated.

It's like I told Matt - you should be happy and proud that we've deduced the flaw in Lebron's game and why he produces such low team ceilngs/Finals records... History shows that Lebron has the lowest assisted rate ever for a frontcourt player BY FAR, so teammates have less opportunity to assist alongside him... The decline in teammates' assists prevents a high assist team and elite ball movement, so Lebron loses TO elite ball movement like the Spurs, Nuggets, Warriors, Mavs and Magic.. All of Lebron's playoff losses for the last 10 years show deficits in team assists.. It's quite a trend.

Otoh MJ, Curry, Jokic and Kobe don't have this problem because they're great assist targets with solid assisted rates for their position, so they don't reduce teammates' assists or have issues with ball movement, fits and chemistry.. Accordingly, they produce much better teams with less help and are therefore superior at basketball than Lebron.. Carry on

When I say "humiliation" - I'm talking about the IRL humiliation that you clearly suffered in your younger days that's still reverberating deep in your psyche in a way that's causing you to spew all this nonsense as though it'll be enough to cover up the pain, not the public humiliation you're subjecting yourself to in this thread. In case it's not clear, literally no one else, not I, not Matty, not fidstar, not Tien, not SABR, takes this as seriously as you do. For most of us, none of this matters, you're a curiosity, like a homeless guy preaching about the end of the world on the street. When people are listening to the homeless guy, they aren't trying to figure out if the world will actually end soon. They are looking for cheap entertainment.

Now, the situation you've created is starting to rise to the level of actual humiliation because you're literally posting pictures and videos of yourself, and sharing so much about your background that you might even be identifiable. You might not be mentally well enough to recognize the humiliation you're putting yourself through, but be warned, your future self just might be. Then again, I've always been known for my boundless optimism.

Totally - like many others here, I went to a school with D1 athletics, which naturally means you get to meet lots of D1 athletes. Lots of hard-working humble people, many of whom have gone on to do great things outside of sports. Unlike our friend here who's bragging about warming the bench and having peaked as a junior analyst in some real estate role that's miles away from high finance (which does hire lots of D1 athletes!) as though that's some uniquely amazing combination.

My guess is that it's much more shameful than that. I usually don't see this level of cope unless it's something deeply personal and traumatic. Maybe his GF publicly cheated on him with one or more of the star players on his team that he's now associating Lebron with. Even that's kinda weak, so I'm guessing it's much more humiliating than that. With that said, maybe you're right that it's something trivial and fallguy is just generationally soft and fragile.

Candybar,

This is a friendly reminder to attack the argument and not the person.

Thanks in advance.

Look how shook you are... And it's just because you failed at refuting my posts and got mad that I'm not humiliated from putting myself out there like you apparently would be... lol... And now you're trying to paint a picture to convince me that I should be humiliated?... Newsflash - we're almost 1000 pages in Mr. Insecurity - this isn't close to the first time that I've posted that stuff in threads... Yet you're still trying to convince me to stop?... That's the definition of crazy.

Meanwhile, itt we learn that Lebron is assisted on only 38% of his shots for his career, which is the lowest ever of any frontcourt player, BY FAR - frontcourt players are typically assisted on 60-90% of their shots... This abnormally-low assisted rate for his position gives teammates less opportunity to assist than they get on other teams.. Lower assists from teammates prevents a high-assist team, so lebron LOSES to high-assist teams with great ball movement like the Nuggets, Spurs, or Warriors..,

This abnormal ball-dominance for his position is the inherent flaw in Lebron's game that causes weak chemistry and perennial losers.. His high volume of unassisted buckets leave teammates standing around in spot-up roles, and this is true for any high-scoring ball-dominator, but it's especially true for Lebron because his ball-dominance is far more abnormal for his position than guys that start at point guard like Luka or Harden.

Brilliant post fallguy. 👍

So it sounds like something did happen? This is now your second response in a row where you're completely avoiding the point. It's like you can't even get yourself to acknowledge what's been said.

I'm glad that you have the courage to put yourself out there and let me take that back - that's totally not humiliating, but rather super courageous of you. I'm impressed by your courage and fortitude. So be strong and tell us, what really happened back then that turned you into a brand-of-ball, assisted target internet warrior?

GJGE

A Good Job and a Good Effort is all I ask of you, and every poster in the SE Forum.

Great post Matt R. !

Ty McLovin’. Providing assisted field goals one post at a time.

The absurd thing is I actually very partially agree with fallguy. I think MJ slightly > LeBron peak v peak, primarily because of his off ball skills and ability to integrate into a pass heavy offense like the triangle. Combined with the requisite stats and (of course lol) 6 rangz and I think this is a valid argument.

But fallguy takes this to unheard levels of stupid when he argues that just about any good off ball jump shooter is better than LeBron, regardless of any other skills, team makeup, and statistical output. Because of something about assisted fg% that makes no sense in context. This makes the part of the argument I actually agree with (above) appear stupid by proxy and it annoys me.

I also admit that I was wrong earlier and I acknowledge that fallguy is simply the world’s most persistent internet troll who happened to pick a very strange niche topic and just craves attention. My assisted troll% is off the charts and I apologize for that.

Imagine that the whole world thought 2+2= 5 and you're the only one that knows it's 4.

You might thoroughly enjoy rubbing everyone's face in your superior knowledge and laughing at them for being stubborn and following a fraud.

I'm like a bully grounding and pounding you guys into submission and meltdowns like you're having right now .. I've enjoyed it so much that I keep doing it and will continue

I got the exact same reply from the guy I asked about why he thought the world was flat.

I think a prime LeBron could’ve mastered the triangle with his grandmaster-like BBIQ.

Good idea... This will help everyone better understand.

Gotta stop you right there.. The bolded is where you're wrong.

We'll start with the eye test... Lebron can't be like Karl Malone and score 36k as the roll man and off-ball... That's why he doesn't fit with ball-handlers like Stockton, Westbrook, IT, Ingram, Hughes, etc.. It's because Lebron is a ball-handler himself.

Now let's look at the stats to back up this eye test... Lebron doesn't have a highly-assisted frontcourt skillset or SG skillset because he has a low-assisted point guard skillset instead.. It's essentially a coaching blunder to start him at any position other than point guard, otherwise his low-assisted rates and abnormal ball-dominance at other positions leaves teammates standing around in spot-up roles (reduces their assists), thereby preventing the best team production - this production would include elite ball movement/team assists, or #1 offense-capability and "dynasty-ball".

To summarize - there's a historical standard of ball movement that teams have used since the inception of the sport and the only low-assisted position is point guard, while the majority of modern dynasties didn't use a point guard/low-assisted player at all... Essentially, Lebron's low-assisted rate in the frontcourt is a deviation from the standard distribution of assisted rates by position, which has yielded the most underperforming teams and lowest team ceilings/Finals records in history.

Putting a point guard skillset in the frontcourt creates 2-point guard lineups like Lebron-Kyrie, or Lebron-Westbrook, or Lebron-D'Angelo, or Lebron-whoever.

2-point guard lineups entail 2 players on the floor that are rarely assisted by teammates, which reduces teammates' assist opportunity compared to normal 1 point-guard lineups... Lower assists from teammates prevents the team from being a high-assist team.

It's important to note that some point guards were turned completely into spot-up shooters and high-assisted rates like Mo or Chalmers, so there really wasn't a 2-point guard lineup in some cases - Lebron was simply the team's point guard and these 1-point guard lineups fared better and underachieved the expectation less... The improvement would've been much larger with these 1-point guard lineups but Lebron's status as the first HIGH-scoring point guard of the modern era means that he's the only player with a high volume of unassisted buckets that leave teammates standing around in spot-up roles.

Accordingly, Lebron lowers teammates' assists regardless of whether he's causing his suboptimal 2-point guard lineups or not... Any high-scoring ball-dominator is suboptimal and we've seen other high-scoring ball-dominators follow Lebron like Westbrook, Harden, Luka, and now SGA.... They will all need exorbitant help to offset their inherently suboptimal brand of ball and chemistry.. Unfortunately, they probably won't get to team-hop and team-up with opponents like Lebron did, but their weak brand would invariably produce perennial losers with every colluded lineup anyway, just like Lebron did.

^^^ None of that decides whether Lebron has a forward skillset or a point guard skillset - the primary stat to determine that is assisted rate, which determines whether Lebron has mostly unassisted buckets (dribbling), and therefore how much he needs teammates to stand around in spot-up roles for him to get stats.. It's a horrific, losing brand of ball.

Anticipated and answered in previous responses.

Anticipated and answered in previous responses.

Anticipated and answered in previous responses.

Lebron has been the primary ball-handler, aka "point guard" for every team that he ever had, and the stats confirm this with a 20-40% assisted rate for his entire career (60-90% historically for frontcourt players), and also lower teammate assists (imposing spot-up roles) for his entire career.

Personal stats are great but how they impact teammates is even more important... And that's where Lebron fails and produces the lowest team ceilings/Finals records ever.

For Lebron to be an elite scorer, he must dominate the ball and score a lot of unassisted buckets that force teammates to stand around and not participate.. This is a horrific brand of ball that has underachieved rosters and expectation more than any other player in the history of the game, while also having the neediest teams of all-time due to worst-ever chemistry.
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he said 'brilliant' on mine... just sayin...

That's no minor thing however... It's literally the difference between the most pass-heavy offense outside of the Warriors, and the least-passing offense in Lebron's, which is the difference between goat team ceilings (6/6) and the woat team ceilings (4/6)...

It's the difference between a goat meeting of expectation and Woat meeting of expectation, such as bevies of losses with preseason favorites, homecourt, all-star teammates, 1 or 2 seeds, and Finals teams, versus zero losses with any of these things..

edit: jordan lost with all-stars in the baseball year and "migraine" year.

Of course people say lebron is a better floor-raiser, except his first playoff teams required the East All-star center, HOF coach and a player that was playing better than 1990 Pippen on both sides of the ball... We can go there if you want.

Nope... Lebron's goat-level physical talent is better than most jumpshooters... Only the best jumpshooters whose talent levels are also insane are better than Lebron - I've always maintained this.. Talent still matters, otherwise you or me would be in the league... But at the highest levels of talent, it's all about skill, and that's where the most skilled phenoms destroy Lebron...

Ultimately, my top 13 is based on the skillsets that produced the best chemistry to produce the best teams and win with the least, such as the rosters they had (organically)... Accordingly, the best jumpshooters are better than the best centers who are better than the best ball-dominators based on these factors... So my top 13 is MJ, Kobe, Bird, Curry, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Duncan, Shaq, Jokic, Magic, Lebron, Oscar.

It's easy to forget that all the dynasties in history that mostly won over a material stretch of 5+ years were led by highly-assisted skillsets like jumpshooters or bigs (Russell, Kareem, Jordan, Duncan, Curry, Kobe/Shaq).. Btw, Jokic is the first 10-assist player in history that wasn't a point guard and didn't dominate the ball with a lot of unassisted buckets, thereby reducing teammates' assist opportunity.... This unprecedented chemistry is why he was able to have a dominant champion with a pretty sub-par cast and also repeatedly expose a fake goat.
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Good to see you followed instructions of "Yes/No".

Typically, people that are smart enough to know something that no one else does tend to leverage that to become successful IRL. On the other hand,

This is typically behavior that we associate with internet cranks. Some of these links might be helpful:

https://www.gschroeder.com/blog/2019/12/...

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Crank

Again, you keep indirectly sharing your experience via projection. How bad was your past humiliation that you have to imagine that your experience here, which is the digital equivalent of a homeless man shouting on the street for attention, equates to you being the bully? Are you also that deprived of success in your life?

It's just motivated reasoning and it make sense given that fallguy was a skinny, tall, athletic wing that was overshadowed by more skilled players that could pass and dribble or were bigger. To the extent that he could imagine being a superstar, due to his poor ball handling skills, he had to be an off-ball guy (not that he could do this at any truly competitive level), so he's talking about how that's the far more skillful and the far more valuable way to play. Note how he only glorifies the physical attributes of players that he also shares.

But in reality, he was a role player that was insecure about his role and had to stand around waiting for the ball. So he's intimately familiar with how that feels, which is why his rhetoric around ball dominance is particularly vicious. It's almost like he blames the better players on his team for not developing him.

Of course, it's a pure contradiction - if it genuinely takes way more skill to be on the receiving end of an assist, then ball dominance is developing everyone else's off-ball skill. On the other hand, if dominating the ball as a passer is so detrimental to their skill development, it can't be that off-ball play requires such a high-level of skill.

In reality, there's a bit of truth that ball movement is a better way to play - especially because of people like fallguy whose ego is dependent on their role. At every level of basketball, we have fragile egos and players make decisions based on ego and personal needs. Systems to a large extent force players to read situations and react, which means players aren't making decisions based on perceived status, which also means players don't feel slighted by other players' decisions.

With that said, the more democratic systems with ball movement only work when you have a roster full of high basketball IQ players. Even at the NBA level, this is rare, because of the focus on size and athleticism. A lot of people involved with the 90's Bulls talked about how difficult the triangle was to learn. There's been a lot of talk on how the Warriors couldn't utilize certain players because they wouldn't be able to execute in their system. These systems ask more of their role players and less of their star players. Which is why this whole Lebron doesn't have the skills to play off-ball or in a ball movement system is so absurd. I think I also wrote a post before about how in college Curry played more like Harden and Harden played more like Curry.

If a beginner at poker asked you the following question - "Phil Hellmuth is the goat at poker because he won the most bracelets right???... Yes or no please"

You could answer with a simple "no", but you wouldn't be helping the nascent fan that asked you the question. It would help to point out that there are other forms of poker aside from WSOP tournaments.

If the nascent fan proceeded to erroneously say that Phil was goat at other forms of poker and wanted to ask a question based on that premise, you would have to correct the fan by pointing out that Phil isn't goat at any other form of poker, and therefore their question isn't applicable.

In this case, Matt said that Lebron had "other skills" in addition to forward skills, except a low assisted rate = point guard skills only.... Only point guards have low assisted rates,so he doesn't have highly-assisted forward skills that fit with ball-handlers like Stockton, Westbrook, Ingram, D-Lo, or IT... 2 + 2 = 4.

That's basically the entire argument - you guys have been hypnotized into thinking that Lebron "plays all 5 positions", even though his worst-ever resume of bad fits proves otherwise, along with his low-assisted rate, which only point guards have... Furthermore, his imposition of spot-up roles and reduction of teammates' assists also proves that he lacks forward skills, since the highly-assisted nature of forwards INCREASES teammates' assists, while Lebron's low-assisted point guard skills DECREASE teammates' assists (hogs the assists, aka point guard)... Of course none of this statistical support should even be necessary because the obvious eye test shows that he's a dribbler/point guard/ball dominator - that's his skillset.

Unfortunately, coaches foolishly put this point guard in the frontcourt, thereby creating suboptimal 2 point guard lineups.. However, I think Reddick has been reading this thread and picked up on this, which is why he benched D-Lo in favor of my guy Knecht - this makes Lebron the only primary ball-hamdler on the floor right (1 point guard lineup)... .... Furthermore, Lebron isn't a high scoring ball-hamdler anymore, so he doesn't have high volume of unassisted buckets that leave teammates standing around in spot-up roles... He's more like Magic now and the Lakers should benefit from lower volume of unassisted buckets from Lebron..

Accordingly, when the Lakers surge on the back of my 1-point guard lineups and Reddick gets to keep his job, he should hit me off with a commission for the insight I provided.

Yes you deserve a commission from the Lakers head coach.

old man in flip-flops with goat hands and mid-range:

goat post and hands:

goat handle:

goat form and follow through:

#Icommanddoubles....

none of my elite moves were shown.. Just a few fundamentals.

That isn't the issue - the issue is that Lebron isn't elite at it - he's only elite at ball-domination, while MJ was elite both on-ball and off-ball - this fit with any teammate or system, thereby allowing maximum strategic capacity and team ceilings/Finals records.

There's a certain instinct required to know the right move upon the catch, and then a skill to have the goat jab-step, and then quickness:

Lebron has none of this - this is a completely different caliber of scoring

It's the opposite - a system makes it easier for role players like Kerr, Korver or Pippen, but it restricts the star player, which is why Lebron rejected it - he lacked the skills to maintain his production while being assisted by teammates in a system instead of dominating the ball and forcing teammates to stand around (not participate).

Btw, pippen WAS a role player, as Dominique states here:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/838gMTNvE...

22 years shows that Lebron is a dribbler and ball-dominator, so when you say that Lebron "could" play off-ball, that's like saying Shaq "could" shoot threes.