99's gets 3 bet.
2/3 NL 8 handed,
I'm not sure how to be thinking about this spot.
Very loose UTG open limps, I am next and raise to 15 with 9s9d. It's folded to BB who raises to 60, the UTG folds. BB seems like a competent player. He's opened a decent amount pre but got no calls. He has me covered. I have 300. I have been very tight so far. We have only been at the same table for about 30 minutes. The UTG has limp folded pre several times.
I don't know what his range is but I would think it is tight. What would a tight range here look like? JJ's+ AK+? Do I consider mostly pot odds when making the call or am I deep enough to be thinking about flopping a set and stacking him? Should I be considering how this could play out post flop? For example how would I proceed if the flop comes 322 and he puts out a 3/4 pot size bet. I have position which is good. Is there a preflop 3 bet size where it should be an easy fold for me? This 3 bet size seems fairly standard. If UTG called this would be an easy call right?
With or without the limper, this seems like a no-brainer call IP to a 3!
V raised 4x your bet, or roughly 2.5x pot.
We are thinking about calling $45 pre. (for a total of 20bb of your starting 100bb) to maybe win another $240 post flop.
Your image is tight and you think V is tight and competent.
You don't have set mining odds, and you're best chance of winning is either calling down (correctly) or checking down and winning. Like if it comes T32r and you get checked to then just piling in the chips isn't going to be a great plan unless V is worse than described.
Seems like a no brainer fold, without reads that you can get to showdown often. Even if we remove fold from the options, I'm dubious if you can play well enough post flop to make call better than shove.
impossible to answer w/o knowing postflop tendencies and stack sizes
I'd let it go. If we had more than 100 bb's we would have options to setmine.
nm i see the stack size now.
i think you can default to assuming his 3b range here is JJ-AA and AK. play accordingly.
If I ended up here with 44's somehow and had 200 BB's it would be a call because of the implied set mine odds? Assuming the villain had me covered.
200 bb's would be better, but still not great.
I generally wanna have about 20 to 1 which would be $900, which includes implied odds (as long as you think that person's capable of putting more money in post flop and not a tight fit or folder). It's usually harder to setmine vs a 3bet than if it was a single raise unless we're much deeper.
We also have SDV once we have 88/99+ where we can win without flopping a set, but when your villain 3bets from the BB and he's basically an unknown, in general people don't usually 3bet with less than the range you gave him (JJ+ and AK).
Seems like a no brainer fold, without reads that you can get to showdown often. Even if we remove fold from the options, I'm dubious if you can play well enough post flop to make call better than shove.
Interesting viewpoint, especially since for the solver 99 is a pure call to a BB 3!
Since we know the Villain isn't a nit, I guess it comes down to how well Hero plays post-flop. Although I prefer a call, I don't think shoving is terrible if Villain views Hero as a nit.
$45 more w/ $285 back and 99. Unless I have some specific read besides competent/tight, no thanks.
Interesting viewpoint, especially since for the solver 99 is a pure call to a BB 3!
Since we know the Villain isn't a nit, I guess it comes down to how well Hero plays post-flop. Although I prefer a call, I don't think shoving is terrible if Villain views Hero as a nit.
I don't have confidence that I would play this well post flop. I'm still adjusting to the NL game.
Lets say I did call and the flop came 832. If he bet small I'd call. If he bet pot or more do I fold or call and reevaluate on the turn. If I called and the turn is a blank and he bets big I should fold? I don't know how stubborn I should get in this spot. I can definitely see some reverse implied odds here for a player lacking experience.
Pretty easy fold, might start to peel at 600$+ deep though
not really and the ones who do stand out so much that yea this can be an autopeel against said people, even a 4-bet. I shoved TT earlier this week against such a player but he had KK sadly. Its just most players cant see beyond I haz dee Azez
I'm not sure what you looked at as a solve, so first guess ignore the limper and sizings and do EP vs. BB with 100bb on std. full ring preflop charts:
EP opens 2.25bb
folds to BB who 3bets 5x (12.25bb)
EP calls 99/88 about 20% folding the rest -- although even 88 isn't a pure open for the robot from EP.
That's rake charts ... for no rake we open wider and fold more which leaves us only a bit wider after the 3bet but 99/88 still roughly 1 combo. of each sees the flop.
BUT now we have to adjust to reality:
1. The 3bet is to 20bb not 12.25bb, although that's mainly from the open being 2x the robots open.
2. The robot BB is 3betting KTs/K9s/QTs/Q8s/A3s/A2s/65s/etc./etc. (and not 3betting QQ much and JJ/TT never -- and mixes AKo)
3. The limp matters, even if only because...
4. The fact we raised the limper and are seen as tight matters, as a bunch of the worst parts of our EP open range is probably calling or folding (and so the 3bet is into a tighter range).
If I look at 50bb charts due to the SPR then I only have 6max, and "UTG" is HJ and opens wider and pure calls 99 ... but even then the 3bet is smaller.
I'm not sure what you looked at as a solve, so first guess ignore the limper and sizings and do EP vs. BB with 100bb on std. full ring preflop charts:
EP opens 2.25bb
folds to BB who 3bets 5x (12.25bb)
EP calls 99/88 about 20% folding the rest -- although even 88 isn't a pure open for the robot from EP.
That's rake charts ... for no rake we open wider and fold more which leaves us only a bit wider after the 3bet but 99/88 still roughly 1 combo. of each sees the flop.
BUT now we have to adjust to real
I had it set for x5 (and x7) open raises, with a 3! from the BB. I'm actually wondering if 99 is closer to indifference, because now I'm getting 75% call / 25% fold at both x5 and x7, although at x7 the solver folds JJ/TT while calling with 99/88, presumably due to unblocking all of the suited Bdways.
There’s no way solver has this spot solved because of the limper.
What your solving for is an 5x open raise (no limper) and an 20xbb 3bet from the bb and this at a table full of gto robots, yes 99 becomes indifferent or almost always a call like you said.
However in this spot vs a top 2/3 reg lol the ranges just aren’t the same. I would argue that even in 5/10+ games this spot is underbluffed because most regs want the limper to come in so they’re 3betting a very tight range from the bb
However in this spot vs a top 2/3 reg lol the ranges just aren’t the same. I would argue that even in 5/10+ games this spot is underbluffed because most regs want the limper to come in so they’re 3betting a very tight range from the bb
Are you saying that solid players are more likely to call in the BB with a hand like JJ/AK simply to try to trap the limper, even though you're now OOP vs. 3 players along with a capped range from the view of the LP raiser? This is not something I see at low limits.
Are you saying that solid players are more likely to call in the BB with a hand like JJ/AK simply to try to trap the limper, even though you're now OOP vs. 3 players along with a capped range from the view of the LP raiser? This is not something I see at low limits.
Its not so much to trap the limper but whats more ev+ in that spot, and remember this is still utg limp/ utg+1 open, if it was co or btn open, ranges will differ widely of course.
They don't always 3bet with those hands because they don't raise in the first place 😉 They limp/shove. LOL.
Regardless, if I were against someone I thought of as a competent, tight player, I'd need to be deeper to call in this spot. It's just too much of my stack to basically set mine. We've played with the guy for 30 minutes -- who knows if we can "outplay" him or what his 3bet range even is?
I just overlimp/evaluate preflop but that's me.
I don't think we should ever be flatting a huge raise for a hugenormouse 20% of our stack (unless perhaps we're tarping with a monster, which 99 isn't). We are only getting ~7:1, so nowhere near what we need to setmine. If we're seen as tight, it is most likely we're either slightly ahead in a flippy situation or destroyed by an overpair, so not a good spot. Even times when we're ahead he'll often be able to steal on the flop with a cbet on a scary board. Plus there's no significant other dead money. So I would just fold preflop. Even with UTG calling I think it is still a fold (still not enough to setmine, although the chances of him stealing the pot with worse postflop are diminished).
If we're not folding then I think shoving would be better than calling. We actually have some FE against better hands (JJ/TT/etc. are put in a pretty gross spot) and meanwhile are ahead in flippy situations. But we really get destroyed when running into those big pairs.
GcluelessNLnoobG
I don't have confidence that I would play this well post flop. I'm still adjusting to the NL game.
With this in mind, I'd be extremely wary of building pots preflop, especially OOP, especially with stacks behind that we can't comfortably commit postflop with TP.
If your kinda newish to NL and just finding your way, IMO (and not everyone will agree), you should attempt to plan hands so that you avoid difficult spots (which are mostly difficult decisions OOP on later streets in big pots). I'm an experienced player and yet my whole strategy even today still boils down to avoiding difficult spots.
Ggoodluck!G
With this in mind, I'd be extremely wary of building pots preflop, especially OOP, especially with stacks behind that we can't comfortably commit postflop with TP.
One benefit of GTO is the smaller opening raise sizes (usually 2x-3x, rather than the 4x-7x often seen at live 1-3 tables), which makes it easier to dump hands if weather conditions worsen.
