LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

Happy Thanksgiving fallguy!

Which of these moves did you use to score those 4 points in college? Also, how would you compare your off-ball skills to Lebron's? What do you do better than Lebron and what does Lebron do better than you?

Hey, if fallguy could follow instructions we wouldn’t be here right now. He also may have actually been accepted to graduate school, and wouldn’t have to pretend that his two online business certificates were master’s degrees with “advanced math classes” to win internet points. It is what it is.

None of those shots were assisted so they don't count.

Sounds like you're just jealous you don't have GOAT hands, etc.

Oh so you’re saying the coach’s offensive strategy and decision making impacts the role LeBron James plays in the offense, and this affects how LeBron plays. And LeBron being the hyper-versatile player that he is with atypical forward skills can easily adapt to it. Which is what I’ve been saying for the past several months, you said was wrong, and has been a central part of your argument for putting LeBron outside your top ten. Looks like we win fallguy, and you are relegated to the end of the bench again.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OG0Eu0sjrJc

YouTube

LeBron with the big balls celebration after the big three 😀

Matt R. taking failguy down, yet again. Initiating the gnp. LeBron dipping his balls in failguy’s face. Too bad he didn’t actually play in the Dean Dome or even go to graduate school or he’d have something to fail back on. Instead, everyone just laughs at how irrelevant he is. Ha ha ha. Ha.

.
Half-Spin towards baseline (defender thinks you're going for the turnaround) - I'm better at Lebron at this move because I've never seen him do it, while I've been destroying souls with it for over 20 years - maybe longer than he's been in the league - it's a nuanced fundamental that less athletic guys need to score but super-athletes like Lebron never develop (except MJ).

Spin from triple-threat position - again, I've never seen Lebron do this move - it's not an uncommon move, so maybe he has - but again, it's not really something a super-athlete needs (yes, MJ travels a tad here, but you wouldn't have seen it either if you were reffing it live)

Happy holiday... I was a post scorer in college - I had a dominant jump hook, good turnaround jumper, and drop-step - but the jump hook is the one move that I'm more talented than Lebron at by virtue of big man hands and being able to drop the ball in the hoop like it's a grapefruit, with either hand - it makes anyone's jumphook on another level from someone with baby hands.

Lebron might take 3 or 4 jumphooks per season and he was 0 for 4 last year on "turnaround hook shots" (which I interpret to mean jump hooks).. TLDR: lebron doesn't take hooks, so in addition to jumphooks, I'm better at the behind-the-back gather-step crossover (the iverson-type, not the wrap-around) - this was shown earlier in a gif - and also double-crossovers associated with this move, and also the 2 moves shown in GIF's in this post.

Lebron has everything else.

Nope

Tens of millions around the world are better free throw shooters than Lebron.

We're talking the shortest fattest nerds and guys that can't even make the YMCA Old Man Division - they can all beat Lebron at basketball.

So it's not uncommon for guys to have better skills than Lebron because he's only maybe goat at 1 move - that's the gather step, going either way - it's a pretty big move to be goat at, but it's not as good as jumpshooting, on either 3's or 2s' (Curry, MJ, respectively).. Or even the hook shot (Kareem)... or the dunk (shaq.... or the jump hook (duncan)..

all of these moves generate better ball movement and chemistry because they're assisted shots that involve teammates, while Lebron's gather-step requires ball-dominant, unassisted buckets that kill team chemistry and dynasty prospects.

You never sniffed grad school - weren't smart enough - so stop the projection with the unaccredited bs... I couldn't even conceive of that, yet you did because it's probably your story and your world.

That's why you had so much trouble understanding something basic like assisted rate and were repeatedly embarrassed... Don't feel too bad tough because Tex and Phil didn't understand it either... Infact, apparently me and the people who made the NBA.com site are the only ones that understand it, since they're the ones that track that official stat.. Otherwise, no one seems to know, understand, or reference the stat.

lol no, I don't wish this on anyone, not even baby-hand dudes like you and Lebron:

[/I]

You misunderstood the post again... If a coach is fortunate enough to have an all-timer on his team, ideally the all-timer will be a highly-assisted skillset that facilitates ball movement and dynasties... But I'm telling Reddick to abandon this optimal approach of trying to put Lebron off-the-ball and at forward because Lebron just dominates the ball from the frontcourt and creates suboptimal 2 point guard lineups...

So just put him at point guard where he belongs and where his ball-dominance is the least abnormal (to minimize reduction in teammate assists)... This isn't as good as having a highly-assisted player like Bird or MJ, but it's better than having 2 point guard lineups - just have 1 point guard lineups by starting him at point guard..

In addition to playing point guard, it's great that Lebron is no longer a high-scoring player and therefore won't be a high-scoring point guard, so he won't have a high volume of unassisted buckets that leave teammates standing around.. He'll be more like magic or isiah as a low-scoring point guard - this is still vastly inferior to Jordan, but it's still better than "lebron" (the high-scorer with high volume of unassisted buckets)...

That's the reason I have Magic ahead of Lebron by 1 spot in the ball-dominator category of my rankings - a low-scoring ball-dominator like Isiah, Magic, or Parker can still win titles organically because they don't have a high volume of unassisted buckets that leave teammates standing around as much as a high-scoring ball-dominator does - so their chemistry is a little better than the high-scoring ball-dominator and they win more.

by Matt R. k

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OG0Eu0sjrJc

YouTube

LeBron with the big balls celebration after the big three 😀

Matt R. taking failguy down, yet again. Initiating the gnp. LeBron dipping his balls in failguy’s face. Too bad he didn’t actually play in the Dean Dome or even go to graduate school or he’d have something to fail back on. Instead, everyone just laughs at how irrelevant he is. Ha ha ha. Ha.

Aside from my gif earlier, you've never seen an Iverson behind-the-back gather-step crossover in the NBA because it's almost never done and you almost certainly never noticed it when it was, or differentiated it from the vastly inferior and old-fashioned wrap-around or non-gather-step (not cutting edge, not next-level, not futuristic)

again, you don't know what i'm talking about and that's okaaaaay

crickets on this one.... #LeBabyHands

There's so many ways to make my point because Lebron is a fraud... I couldn't make any of these arguments about MJ.. If you asked me what moves that I do better than MJ, I would answer: none, and wtf are you smoking...

But for Lebron, I literally just had to reference a couple MJ moves that I coped and lebron didn't... So he's even a fraud for calling MJ his idol and then not copying his game... Lebron's turnaround jumper and footwork is horrible... he can't play off-ball... I doubt this dude even liked MJ just like he never read that book... it's kind of his thing to tell falsehoods, collude, employ shills, blame teammates, choke, and be underhanded in general.

Just so you know, going to graduate school isn’t some big accomplishment and you don’t need to make that big of a deal about not getting in due to poor grades or whatever. It was just extremely obvious you never attended because you didn’t even know what a transcript was. It is literally required to send in a transcript with any and every graduate school application to, you know, show your grades and proof of degree.

Only someone that didn’t go to graduate school wouldn’t know that, which means your two master’s degrees do not exist and are online business certs instead. Like I said though it’s cool, no need to hang your head in shame. Just probably not a great idea to go bragging about something that doesn’t exist to people far smarter than you. Oh yeah and that offering to bet about math courses and then chickening out like a little bitch wasn’t great either so probably best you sweep that under the rug too.

You’re really really stupid and have no chance of understanding this but I’ll say it anyway for completeness.

Your entire core argument for Kobe >> LeBron was that LeBron’s assisted fg% was too low. I then pointed out that the data shows that Kobe and LeBron actually have similar assisted fg% for their careers, proving you wrong.

Then you added to your wrong argument by saying it’s not a fair comparison because LeBron is a forward and therefore should optimally have a much much higher assisted fg%.

This was also a stupid argument because LeBron isn’t a typical forward and could very easily modify his role and play style depending on the needs of the offense and coaching strategy due to how versatile he is. His role and therefore assisted fg% is a function of how his coach uses him in his offense.

You said this was impossible and compared it to Shaq becoming an elite 3 point shooter.

This was also a stupid argument (notice a pattern?) because LeBron is factually much faster, more agile, and a better ball handler and playmaker than the average forward. Therefore he plays more like a hybrid forward/wing player or even (very often) a point guard.

You said more stupid stuff after that claiming that no it was impossible because LeBron is a forward and it’s bad his assisted fg% isn’t above some arbitrary number that you just made up, again because you are stupid.

Then it still somehow didn’t click for you. You said LeBron is playing point guard this year and this was good and you somehow started gloating (because you are stupid) even though you just literally proved my entire point: LeBron is a highly skilled, highly versatile, and therefore atypical forward that can adapt to probably any offense. And therefore his role is much more of a hybrid forward/wing/point role and so his stats (including assisted fg%) would shift far closer to the average pg than a typical post forward.

So again, because you are stupid and somehow didn’t see this coming I will say it explicitly as you certainly still don’t get it: your argument that LeBron is bad because he has a low assisted fg% for a forward is really really wrong (and stupid) because he does not play like a typical forward which you yourself admit. He plays closer to a point guard (point forward) and his coach just has to use him properly and have the right personnel for that to work. Thus your entire argument saying it is bad that LeBron’s assisted fg% is close to Kobe’s assisted fg% (as if that’s the only stat that matters anyway) is completely ****ing stupid because LeBron plays closer to a point guard than any other forward in history.

It scares me that you didn’t understand this is where the argument was going and you allowed me to checkmate you so easily. I’m afraid you’re at risk of having your online business certificates revoked for being too stupid to even have a university of Phoenix business degree. Although wherever you got your certificates from probably went out of business so I doubt it matters much for you anyway.

.
Assisted Rates during prime years

2000 Kobe.......... 44.8
2001 Kobe.......... 41.8
2002 Kobe.......... 37.2
2003 Kobe.......... 40.0
2004 Kobe.......... 46.9
2005 Kobe.......... 34.2
2006 Kobe.......... 43.8
2007 Kobe.......... 40.0
2008 Kobe.......... 40.0
2009 Kobe.......... 37.3
2010 Kobe.......... 40.5

2006 Lebron...... 32.0
2007 Lebron...... 34.3
2008 Lebron...... 34.3
2009 Lebron...... 33.6
2010 Lebron...... 36.5
2011 Lebron...... 32.3
2012 Lebron...... 37.4
2013 Lebron...... 40.1
2014 Lebron...... 41.6
2015 Lebron...... 34.5
2016 Lebron...... 40.4
2017 Lebron...... 37.8
2018 Lebron...... 31.0
2019 Lebron...... 34.1
2020 Lebron...... 28.9

Lebron"s assisted rates ranged between 31-41, while Kobe's was between 37-47... This excludes Lebron's down year of 28.9 in 2020, and Kobe's 34.1 in 05'.

So Kobe's assisted rates are clearly a level higher.

Lebron"s assisted rates ranged between 31-41, while Kobe's was between 37-47 (shown above)..

So Kobe's assisted rates are clearly a level higher.. It's insane for a guard to have higher assisted rate than any frontcourt player, especially a big one.

Furthermore, Lebron's assisted rates are the lowest-ever for a frontcourt player by a huge margin, so teammates have less opportunity to assist alongside him - Lebron's own assists merely offset a reduction of teammates' assists, thereby preventing a high assist team..
Lebron turns a highly-assisted position into a low-assisted one, thereby preventing elite team assist capability.
.

22 years has proven that coaches can only use Lebron in a low-assisted, point guard role.. Even when they start him at forward, he simply becomes a 2nd point guard on the floor by being a 2nd player with a low-assisted rate, which destroys hus teammates' opportunity to assist...

Even when he's the only point guard, his high-scoring point guard style has high volume of unassisted buckets that leave teammates standing around in spot up roles.

It's only a small exaggeration - Lebron simply isn't as versatile as you think and 22 years of the lowest assisted rate ever for a frontcourt player (by far) proves that beyond a shadow of a doubt.

This is further confirmed by the eye test that shows Lebron is the biggest ball-dominator and monopolizer in history..

For example, he has numerous displays of RECORD and ABSURD ball-dominance such as the 15' or 18' Playoffs - he should be embarrassed for devolving the game into such crap that Harden later copied... (btw, Lebron's scoring burden on these runs was still less than Jordans, so don't say that he "needed" to be ball-dominant because Jordan carried bigger loads without dominating the ball).

Btw, a better analogy would be to ask Shaq to dribble and dominate the ball

Lebron has assisted rates of between 20-40%, which only point guards have

He did this for 22 years and was one of the league's biggest ball-dominators for 22 years.

Lebron has never had assisted rates anywhere near a forward.

Forwards have 60-90% assisted rates and Lebron's has been 29-40% for 22 years - he's the lowest assisted frontcourt player in history by far, and it's because he's the biggest ball-dominator in history.

fallguy clearly has a PhD level of basketball knowledge, thoroughly displayed itt time and again.

Just as I predicted, fallguy did not have the cognitive ability to understand the point.

LeBron does not have typical forward assisted rates because he is a point forward and thus will have assisted rates closer to a point guard, not a post player. And since point guards have lower assisted rates on average than shooting guards he will of course have lower assisted rates than Kobe Bryant. The amazing thing is that it is so close (a few %) despite LeBron James never playing in an offense like the triangle.

This all proves that LeBron’s assisted rate is a function of his coaches and the offenses he has played in. When he has played off ball (e.g. some of the time in Miami) he is excellent at it. But he doesn’t play off ball all the time. Again because he plays point. And his statistics reflect this.

It makes perfect sense that fallguy wouldn’t know this because he has outright stated he does not watch basketball. He may be dumb, but he is an elite troll. I don’t know how he has the time, but he’s still getting us to respond to his low bball IQ trolls. Watch, as our responses dwindle due to boredom he will get more and more elaborate with the walls of text and his off ball troll game to get attention.

.
Summary of how we know Lebron cannot change from low-assisted skillset to high-assisted just like Luka can't turn into Rip Hamilton or Malone:

* Extra dribbles makes a shot unassisted, so a player's assisted rate is a measure of how much they dribble - low assisted rates means more unassisted buckets/dribbling and Lebron is in the group of low assisted rates that only point guards have. It's foolish to say that these types of players like Lillard, Luka, Lebron, Westbrook or Harden can change their style and turn into highly-assisted skillsets like Curry, Klay, Malone or Jokic.. They never have and never could because they lack the jumpshooting touch or instinct to execute quick scoring upon the catch..

* Low assisted rates/dribbling imposes spot-up roles upon teammates (decreases teammates' assists), which Lebron has done for 2 straight decades - again, players don't go from ball-dominance to Klay or Malone.

* If Lebron could switch his role to a highly-assisted skillset for coaching or strategy purposes, why didn't he do it when Westbrook, Ingram, IT, Hughes, or even Wade would've fit better with such a player???... Why underachieve at historic levels with all these guys instead???

Lebron has point guard assisted rates because he has a point guard skillset and nothing else -only point guards have a 20-40% assisted rate and can't go into the 40"s... This is a statistical fsct that backs up an obvious eye test...

And again, Lebron's many bad fits that caused historic embarrassment and underachievement confirms that Lebron isn't capable of going from a point guard's assisted rate to Malone or Bird... But this was already intuitive based on the obvious eye test... We didn't need stats like 20 years of point guard assisted rate, the worst fits ever, and the longest and most never-ending string of bad fits.
.

fallguy have you ever thought of retirement? I think you proved your case in spades itt.

What eye test? You’ve said dozens of times that you don’t watch basketball.

Because, as I’ve explained to you 5 times now, LeBron is most effective as a hybrid forward/point forward player due to his elite playmaking ability. Anyone that has ever watched basketball before would tell you he’s one of the best ever at that.

If you try to turn him into Karl Malone or Tim Duncan he would be worse because you are restricting his playmaking. I know that, his coaches know that, everyone in this thread knows that, and anyone with two functioning brain cells knows that. You’re the only one that doesn’t seem to understand that, and as I noted in my last post it’s obvious that it’s never going to happen because you just aren’t capable.

I competed with a lot with many NBA players - not just play with - but compete with as in we were on the same team.

That enhances my eye test so only cursory glances are required.

You're claiming that it isn't good to turn Lebron's unassisted buckets and low-assisted rate into Duncan's high-assisted rate and "forward" style, except plenty of great playmakers had high-assisted rates like Jokic, Bird or MJ, while only point guards have mostly unassisted buckets (low-assisted rates) like Lillard, Luka, and Lebron..

So again, the "point-guard-only" characteristic of low-assisted rates exposes Lebron as a point guard skillset and this skill restriction to low-assisted point guard skills is why he can't fit with other point guards like Westbrook like highly-assisted frontcourt players do (Durant, Bird, Jokic, and every frontcourt player in history not named Lebron).

In addition to assisted rates, another "point guard only" stat is the NBA-tracked "time of possession" (hold-time), where Lebron is among the leaders, while being the only 'frontcourt' player in history to do so... Lebron is currently at the same level as Ja Morant and D'Aaron Fox, while being ahead of Garland, CP3, Tyus Jones and others.. Lebron actually has the all-time records for time of possession in various playoff series - he becomes the biggest ball-dominator in history when the playoffs roll around.

Accordingly, there are 2 stats (assisted rate and time of possession) that demonstrate Lebron's point guard skillset, which is often misplaced by coaches in the frontcourt - this causes abnormally-low assisted rate for his position, thus reducing teammates assist opportunity and making them stand around in spot-up roles.. Furthermore, the spot-up roles reduce the assists of all teammates and hogs the assists for Lebron, which is literally the point guard's job (to hog the assists)... That's also why all the dynasties that mostly won over a material stretch of 5+ years were led by guys that didn't hog the assists (highly-assisted skillsets), such as Russell, Kareem, Jordan, Duncan, Curry, Kobe/Shaq.