GGPoker, Elky and Fedor: HS Regs' Perspective
After the events of the last few weeks, I wanted to write a post detailing what has happened with GG from the perspective of the HS community.
I personally haven't been playing much poker in the last year, but as a moderator in the HS group have a good oversight of the situation.
For anyone unaware, on November the 8th GG Poker:
- Removed VIP games
- Added Exclusive games where a host gives access
- Added 2knl with an exact copy of 1knl rake, 8bb/100 at the tables
Background to our relationship with GG:
- March 2023 - GG doubles rake at VIP tables overnight with no announcement. Regs realise through TOCs, and organise a mass boycott of the games.
- April 2023 - Elky acting as a rep for GG helps to present the data we provide on why this rake structure change will hurt their bottom line. We close the boycott with just a small rake increase, reduced rake 2-3 handed, and the promises to work more closely together in future
- April 2023 - Early 2024 - We provide a lot of data to GG poker about rake and action from other sites, mainly with the aim of reducing 2-3 handed rake so pros can battle each other, start tables, as they do elsewhere. Elky seems receptive and on board, but GG themselves don't believe that pros will play pros at any rake structure, despite the overwhelming evidence from ACR.
- In the same period, GG agree to give us more input to security, and some long term consensus cheating accounts disappear. Elky goes as far to say he will instantly freeze accounts for investigation, if the HS group mods are 90% sure they are cheating,. We take this bar very seriously, collecting evidence on many accounts, but only use it on two occasions.
- January 2024 - GG Changes their game integrity format, with Fedor as the new game integrity advisor
- Feb 2024 - myself and the PLO rep meet with Fedor on call, and discuss the issues we think are most important. I felt it was a very useful call, he communicated GGs standpoint on various issues, made it seem easier to understand, and also seemed open some ideas we had.
- Feb 2024 to present - Fedor and Elky respond with delays in the chat, but generally I'd say the relationship was good, things didn't get any worse on GG poker. Since then we only reported 2 accounts cheating, both were investigated at least, albeit with a long delay. The second account, Dennis Vetter, was still cheating and playing up to the last day of the VIP games, albeit only reported a week or so before. In the latter months Elky was kind of AFK, we heard he had some sickness so thought it could be that.
So in general, although things were not ideal obviously with high rake, low WR - GG poker seemed to be making an effort with GI and at least there was a line between players and the business.
I would also note that personally I endeavoured to only suggest ideas that would both be beneficial for the regs, and the business (lower rake HU and 3handed the most obvious example), hoping that this would keep some mutual respect rather than spamming with pie in the sky thinking.
My general feeling from these interactions was that:
- GG is profit maximising, but a smart company in general
- Elky was genuinely trying to make an effort to protect player interests. Fedor harder to get a read on, on occasions felt like he wasn't properly reading our messages fully and didn't really think we understood the landscape or situation. EG I provided a report with 4 GTOwiz hits for the same player, and noted that there were infinite more (it was every hand) but I would avoid spamming as they have already been emailed to support, and he responded a month later with a message about how GTOwiz hits can't be used as evidence and this case doesn't look particularly obvious.
For me personally this was a bit frustrating as I was filtering hard which reports from the HS community I thought merited being pushed to this level.
This brings us to early November:
Rumours start to abound that GG are making HS games private. We ask Elky for information, he says on 07/11:
Less than 24 hours later, he is in the middle of a marathon 10 hour session with a table full of recs in these new exclusive games.
Meanwhile, I message Fedor privately to ask what's going on. He says Elky will have to answer, and he has no insight to that part of the company, but he's not planning to play the games.
I message Elky saying I will publish something but can wait for his comment, and he says he'll have something by end of the day - but sends nothing.
Fedor then starts to grind the games too, pming to say he'll probably be playing here and there after all.
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My conclusions from this period are as follows:
GG
GG is a business, it cares about it's bottom line.
It didn't believe HS games were profitable after transaction costs, game integrity, so decided to privatise them with hosts, and raise the rake. I mostly believe the that they didn't much profit from these games. Recreationals have very high PVIs and acquisition costs,
I think over time regs will be allowed back in to increase the liquidity, obviously paying higher rake, likely giving some % of their action the game runners.
What seems clear though is that GG doesn't care about poker as competition/meritocracy or the HS dream.
Despite overwhelming evidence, they maintain that regs won't play regs no matter the rake.
The profitable variants that remain on GG website are largely only profitable through promotions. At 1knl a huge % of regs w/r comes from promotions (leaderboard, envelopes) that GG can pull at any point.
And from the leaks from PokerOK CEO/ other sources privy to their plans, it seems they aren't really concerned about it being possible to win in the long run. If they haven't come for your format now, they will in future.
There is nothing morally wrong with businesses pursuing maximum profit imo, and maybe they should be expected to. In GGs pursuit of growth, they actually resurrected HS poker too, probably benefitting most 500nl+ players to this point.
But if you are a poker player representing the business, with the information I have it seems you have to concede that you care more about the business than the other players or poker as a competitive game, which brings me to;
Elky and Fedor
Their brand is attached to GG. Until this recent period I genuinely would say I believe they were just realistic people who cared about the players interests, but understood they were operating within a business framework and radical change is unrealistic.
This last period though has made me question this assumption to say the least, and unless any further information comes to light, it seems reasonable to say they care more about their bottom line than the game itself.
This is also fine, it's not in my personal taste, especially if already extremely wealthy, but people through the whole of history have prioritised their own financial situation over 'moral' interests. It can also be debated if 'protecting the ability to win at poker HS' is a moral interest, but for me it's the thing that drew me to the game. No politics, just strategy, and the ability to test your strategy vs whomever you'd like.
It doesn't make them evil or bad, but silence on this particularly in Elkys case does mean they can't claim to be champions of the game in my opinion, and this should be acknowledged.
What can we do
Publicly support sites and ambassadors that do seem to have interest in maintaining the game, and the opportunity to play highstakes.
Right now this is:
- ACR, whose reps have been very responsive to feedback from the HS community in general, albeit maybe lacking the business competence of GG
- CoinPoker, with new ownership, Pads, big interesting promos coming
- WPTpoker, with HS games and competent GI as far as I can tell, and an interest in engaging with the players
Research rake and please think before you aimlessly play these new games GG offer. and vindicate their decision making. I counted 80 entries into 2k yesterday with 4 profitable seats.
Honestly though, when one site has the monopoly and seems to be trying to push it, it's almost every other platform.
For anyone reading from these or other sites, we have a discord with all the HS players in which we coordinated to try and make GI easier, streamline investigations and reports, feel free to reach out.
Any reasonable questions I'll do my best to answer in the thread.
Surely he doesn't get to keep all of it?
As Ralph said, what would be the point of stopping players like Linus and Barak from winning 5bb/100 just to have misha win like 40bb/100?
The accusation seems to be that GG insiders are getting pieces of the action
Which my understanding is this is in-line with IRL private games where the host takes action on the winners
I really dislike this push to make poker less of a meritocracy. If I'm not good enough to beat a game I just get better until I can beat it.
Whether you like it or not the meritocracy includes the skills to get the whales to play not just the skills that allow you to fleece them when others bring you the marks.
Whether you like it or not the meritocracy includes the skills to get the whales to play not just the skills that allow you to fleece them when others bring you the marks.
Those aren’t necessarily two separate skills. How many millions of players did guys like Ivey/Dwan bring to the game on shows like PAD/HSP while fleecing the whales?
Those aren’t necessarily two separate skills. How many millions of players did guys like Ivey/Dwan bring to the game on shows like PAD/HSP while fleecing the whales?
And you do not give the credit to those that broadcast the games? BTW they brought virtually no whales to their games albeit they brought some players to poker but compared to Moneymaker they were insignificant. I agree in the days before computers allowed you to fleece the whales while having the personality of a turnip most HS players both got the marks and fleeced them. BTW the fact that players can have both skills in no way means they are not separate skills.
And you do not give the credit to those that broadcast the games? BTW they brought virtually no whales to their games albeit they brought some players to poker but compared to Moneymaker they were insignificant. I agree in the days before computers allowed you to fleece the whales while having the personality of a turnip most HS players both got the marks and fleeced them. BTW the fact that players can have both skills in no way means they are not separate skills.
Who are you? Are you a winning poker player? Host of a game? Or someone that is currently looking to be sponsored pro by a poker site?
And you do not give the credit to those that broadcast the games? BTW they brought virtually no whales to their games albeit they brought some players to poker but compared to Moneymaker they were insignificant. I agree in the days before computers allowed you to fleece the whales while having the personality of a turnip most HS players both got the marks and fleeced them. BTW the fact that players can have both skills in no way means they are not separate skills.
What I meant by "separate skills" is that the best players always inspire the players at the bottom to become better, to chase that dream of one day becoming them. The same way someone like Federer or Nadal inspired people to play tennis, Ivey/Dwan inspired youngsters to start playing poker. Of course they were insignificant compared to Moneymaker lol, everything is, but I'd bet the prime FTP days with Dwan/Isildur/Ivey are definitely up there at the top in terms of how many players were drawn to poker from it.
poker is just going back to prehistoric time, game for gangstas thinking they’re really cool because big money swinging around
the only meritocracy now are MTTs
Surely he doesn't get to keep all of it?
As Ralph said, what would be the point of stopping players like Linus and Barak from winning 5bb/100 just to have misha win like 40bb/100?
The Misha guy is sponsored by GG and shills their product to his fans. Watching the guy blow money at midstakes probably wasn’t encouraging new players to deposit.
poker is just going back to prehistoric time, game for gangstas thinking they’re really cool because big money swinging around
the only meritocracy now are MTTs
The bolded part is true. But it also just goes to show why sites are doing things like this and why games are going private.
MTT's let anyone play. This has caused them to be pretty terrible to watch and play. Something will likely need to be done about them in the future. Nothing is too imminent since the numbers are still good. This is mainly due to pent up demand from Covid imo. I understand the pandemic has been over for a while, but the last thing to come back is MTT's , hence the pent up demand. Especially on the east coast, Parx and Borgata just now starting to get back into MTT's and at a much smaller level the pre covid.
Problem is they let anyone play. With players being self serving and terrible for the game makes it a pretty terrible experience for many. Among the many problems ...
tanking- both on long decisions, and players feeling the need to take the same about of time to act preflop, for example even if they know they are folding a bad hand, they need to sit there for 30 seconds before folding to be consistent.
assistance- both digital and real life. whether it's running simulations or even going to get advice and info from their rail (who are often studying the situation, etc)
That stuff is terrible for someone who just wants to play a poker tourney and not make it their life. Who wants to sit there and watch people tank for 80% of the tourney.
In the future I could certainly see some "amateur only" type MTT's popping up. Obviously logistics would have to be ironed out.
In the
Who are you? Are you a winning poker player? Host of a game? Or someone that is currently looking to be sponsored pro by a poker site?
Older, retired, win at poker(measured by year more than 10 times as many winning years as losing years, measured by dollars overall net positive) but meaningless money compared to my net worth as I never play at a level where I could win or lose meaningful money. Do not host a game as you mean it; have hosted games that were nickel-dime-quarter with a $5 buy in with friends that are all now worth 7 digits + so the limited buy in is by choice not mandated by financial circumstances. Started the game in high school in the 1960s and still play roughly 4 times a year for nostalgia and an excuse to get together. Do not play or desire to play online as have enough knowledge to know how easily a site can cheat that you could not catch.. I just find the idea that some think HS regs have the right to expect an online site find the marks but whine when the site then expects the lions share from the marks amusing.
The problem with Cash Games online imo is that the results are artificialy created through many sites using multiple player platforms. Basically matching you with players with similair skill levels. This doesn't happen in tournaments online, so basically cash game players have an extremely difficult climate to start with. Then there's RTA, Collusion and sites like GG offering obsurd games with extremley high rake structures. Maybe they see the furture that eventually online cash games will become less and less so want to maximise profits while there are still games to be raked.
Most ambassadors online are essentially puppets because they are collecting a wage at the end of the day. Unfortunatley doing the right thing doesn't make people money. That's the bottom line.
Unless someone wants to make a poker site that is for the community and operates at break even after costs then nothing will change and things continue to get wore until there is nothing left to rake.
We need one global player pool that different poker clients opt in to; with various sites competing for who can give hero the best GUI customer experience, best rake and best customer support whilst protecting recs, and booting villains. Release the hand histories 48 hours after they are played and let us - the poker community determine if there is cheating going on. Via a PTR like site.
Ring fencing the deposited funds would be a pipe dream though.
All they have to do is cover their running costs, depositing, withdrawing fees and its license to print money at high stakes, but organisations (as do cheating hs weak ass regs that aren't good enough to beat the best so they have to cheat) like this always get greedy. Online poker has soo much potential for mathematical excitement and greatness. The poker rooms should be talking to each other and sharing their player pools above a certain stake as the traffic reduces. The higher the steak tastes. More players will join, better sample sizes, more fun for the rec high stakers. But it comes with the game. Never trust anyone when it comes to money. There's always another rbumhunting scumbag around the corner.
Also if you poker rooms really cared about us, there would be 11handed plo games to reduce the rake at these levels. With public HH for us to tail and rail in NVG.
We need one global player pool that different poker clients opt in to; with various sites competing for who can give hero the best GUI customer experience, best rake and best customer support whilst protecting recs, and booting villains. Release the hand histories 48 hours after they are played and let us - the poker community determine if there is cheating going on. Via a PTR like site.
Ring fencing the deposited funds would be a pipe dream though.
All they have to do is cover their running co
Poker sites care about you and your profit as much as your suggestions show you care about them and their profit.
I don't think poker sites should care about anything besides their interests. I was never under any illusion over this.
We as poker players just need to adjust to market conditions.
Would suck if some poker site just managed to do something like miscalculate their moves and make the pie smaller for everyone, themselves included, which might or might not be happening here with GG.
I don't think poker sites should care about anything besides their interests. I was never under any illusion over this.
We as poker players just need to adjust to market conditions.
Would suck if some poker site just managed to do something like miscalculate their moves and make the pie smaller for everyone, themselves included, which might or might not be happening here with GG.
I think that you are likely correct that GGs recent move will decrease the size of the pie. I think their likely requirement that those pros they give access to the high stakes games give them a cut of their winnings makes the profit to GG bigger. Long term I think they needed to go this route as the number of sharks at HS has increased more quickly than the number of whales so they are trying to limit the predators while increasing the share of the whales money that ends up in their pockets. Sharks are easy to find; whales are hard to find so why let random sharks feast on the whales when it is GG with their advertising, marketing, and willingness to ignore the law in certain countries with the attendant risk that provide the whales?
Triton does an invitational tournament.
Is this really true? Yong is behind GG?
