Worst hand I've ever experienced

first step to being a better player is to take an honest accounting of yourself

you're lying to yourself if you think you are cashing 50% of the time because you'd be doing very well if you were

secondly, your hh is ffed

you are utg, so you're leaving out key info, especially what the blinds are

secondly, what hands do you put villian on, is there any world where they call your shove with less than a jack?

Sorry if I wasn't clearer, I meant min-cashing, ie overfolding until I'm in the money.

The blinds at that point were 1250/2500. He had been playing all sorts of rubbish hands, that made me think he was bullying other players from pots due to his larger stack size. I put him on an ace, that's about as far as my thinking went regarding his hand.

Hope this clarifies things!

you think because he's been playing aggro that he'll call with ace high on a 4 way pot?

your hh is still ff'd you are utg, you're leaving out a ton of info

but the main thing is that's the world's easiest fold with JTo utg and it appears like you limped, then called a raise and then you ignore all that disaster and focus on what you believe to be a bad beat when it was a disaster of your own creation - again, what is calling your shove there that loses to a jack?

Yes, I did think because he'd been playing aggro that he'd call with ace high. I'm not sure what you mean by ff'd. hh= hand history i assume but i'm not sure how to post it. At the time I thought there's no way he had a 7 because it's a 1 in 3,333 chance he held a 7 considering the flop so i thought there's no way he could have it due to the math.

Then again I would've lost to AA, KK, QQ. I'll admit I did not consider those holdings at the time due to his loose play. However for him to have 76o just seems to me like complete dumb luck to someone like me. I'm likely an idiot to do this in this hand but I just don't really understand why.

perhaps you should pause on poker and read some books on it if you think anyone in a million years is going to call with ace high on a 4 way flop for their tourney life because they've previously showed aggression

You're probably right, I generally play by 'feel'. But I just wonder about it because he had 76o in his hand. What was his thought process preflop?

You are not an idiot, we can't learn if we don't make mistakes.

this 100%, i'm sorry if i came off as rude, that was not my intention

Thank you I was just looking for a bit of feedback from people better than myself to hopefully condense it for my brain to understand.

rickroll thanks for the input but you clearly know more about it than me, I wasn't trying to make a thread to justify my decision in that hand. I just hoped that someone would explain if I was wrong, and in layman's terms, why.

imo you made 2x major blunders here

the 1st is you played JTo utg, that's an auto fold there - you're almost never the best hand and you'll be playing out of position the rest of the way

the 2nd is failed to understand you had a mid strength hand on that board and essentially turned your hand into a bluff

777J means there's basically nothing there for anyone unless they have Jx, 7x, or QQ+

you have Jx, which is the worst possible hands which have anything, so instead of "I have a full house" you should think "I have the worst possible hand that isn't a pure bluff"

you have a hand that can check call hoping someone is bluffing, you even have a hand that if nobody is betting can put out a small wager on the river hoping to target ace high or 88 type hand - but that's still really thin

instead, the villain shows strong aggression and instead of just folding or turning your hand into a bluff catcher, you shove, which again, means you're losing 100% of the time you do that

if you call, you win the smaller pot vs his bluffs, chop vs his jacks, and lose the smaller pot to his value
if you shove, and the villain was bluffing then he folds so you win the same amount as if you called, if he has a jack then you chop for same result, if he has value then you lose everything instead of the smaller amount

so you essentially gain nothing by the shove because a jack is the worst possible hand he's ever calling with there ever

perhaps you can sometimes rep a better hand yourself and get a jack to fold, but you need a very clear read on the player to do that, and your read was that he'd call with ace high (no, this is absolutely wrong, he's never calling with ace high) so you actually believed the opposite because if he's calling with ace then he's still calling with jacks etc

i think this hand betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of both how to play (playing JTo utg) and how your opponents will play (nobody is ever calling with less than a jack there ever)

Thank you for taking the time to type that all out. Perhaps I got into the hand initially due to the excitement of potentially reaching the final table, who knows but most likely. In hindsight, JTo is a shitty hand regardless, and considering my large stack, should've been folded preflop, and you highlighted that, so thank you. I suppose with a level head, it's an easy fold but due to inexperience I post it here, however I do still believe at a $1 hyper tournament, in the moment it felt like an easy shove when seeing the jack, for the full house. Perhaps I need to start thinking of extreme possibility rather than my thought of the time ie "no way he's got that one card in the deck that beats me here".

JTo fold is the answer I guess and another, different hand will ensue.

I'd like to thank you because you didn't have to type that all out, but I thank you for doing so. You're hard but you are right, thanks.

It's just that, from my eyes, I'd built a stack stacking players whilst i'd had a good hand and it held, this was a misjudgement completely on my part forgetting that I could be potentially beat, and shoving my handsomely large stack thinking i'll win again. (I was about 35th out of a field of 1000+ total players)

"There's always a better spot" rings true. However during the hand, the flop being 777, there is a 1 in 3333 chance he had 4 of a kind. I can't quite get past this logically, and it leaves me annoyed.

Thank you again for taking the time.

One in 3,333 does not mean it's impossible; it means it's rare. If you play enough poker, you will see all sorts of statistically unlikely things happen.

Loose-aggressive players get dealt premiums like AA, KK, and QQ as often as anyone else. And they will flop made hands more often than tighter players simply because they play a wider range of starting hands. For example, I don't play 93-suited, so I will never flop a flush with that hand. But a player who does play that hand will sometimes flop a flush with it.

This is one of the advantages of playing a LAG style: when he flops a made hand, it's disguised because his opponents (in this case, you) are less likely to give him credit for it.

Here is the thing - you are completely misunderstanding the math. I'm going to take your 3333 number to be correct. This would be the probability that he flops 3 of one of his cards. Once the flop comes out 777 the odds drop considerably. Now the question is "What is the probability that he has a 7, given that there is only one of them, and there are 6 known cards (your JT, and the 777J on the board). Therefore there are 46 unknown cards, and one is a 7. All things being equal (meaning he has a random hand) the probability is 1 out of 46. Given that he raised preflop and clearly doesn't have 77, the probability is a little less than that. But nowhere near 1 out of 3333.

Think about the probability someone gets a Royal Flush. Pretty low, right? Now, what is the probability someone has a Royal Flush if the board has TJQK all spades and raises when someone bets? Suddenly it has gotten a lot more likely.

Avoid the problem by folding JT offsuit UTG without thinking twice about it, but also remember that preflop probabilities go out the window after the flop comes out.

You're playing dollar tournaments, bro. Save the screenshots for your progression to play money

/thread

Bro that shove for value truly is one of the worst moves I've ever seen. It's actually worse than calling an all-in against AA with 27o for the reasons rickroll gave you above.

Thanks for the input all. I won't shove JTo anymore.

Way too much strat for a BBV thread.

beginning to consider this is all a level with it being in bbv with a new user with that username

well played morph, well played

Not a troll, but I do thank all for the insight.

This is thinking about it the wrong way.

Imagine a poker game where everyone shoved all in preflop every hand. This would obviously be a random game where anyone could win simply due to luck. However now think about how you could win in that game. If you could just fold a percentage of your worst hands (think 7 2 or 9 2). You would win in the long run simply because you are declining to participate with the worst of your range.

Now it is exponentially more complicated, but carry that attitude to post flop action. If you are willing to fold marginal hands post flop you will win in the long run.

In this case you have an extremely marginal hand. You literally have the lowest possible hand that could reasonably consider continuing on this board. So you are calling for a chop at best.

Yes, it would be extremely rare for him to have a 7 in this situation, but rare does not mean impossible. Rare hands happen.

Instead of thinking it would be rare (almost imppossible. For him to have a 7 there, you should instead be thinking about what he thinks you have. If he doesn't have a 7 then he has to be afraid of you having a 7. Therefore he isn't betting any hand you can beat with a J. He is looking to get to showdown as cheaply as possble unless he has a hand that beats you (which is assured since you have the lowest possible hand that should be thinking about putting more money in the pot.

In this case with the lowest possible hand, you want to play as small as pot possible.

It goes back to my original premise, winning players make their money in the long run by saving a bet or two (or more) by folding where others would call.

Put a better way, you will win in the long run by playing slightly better hands than your opponents on any given street.

worst hand I've ever experienced was my right hand when Im lonely