LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

That would be epic.

Deleting the last bunch of posts and locking the thread with exactly 23000 posts would be incredible.

.
Since assisted rate was first tracked in 1997, here's all the players with high volume of unassisted buckets (over 25 ppg and less than 40% assisted rate), and their team assist ranking:

2002 Kobe Bryant................ 9th in team assists
2003 Tracy McGrady............ 21st in team assists
2005 Tracy McGrady............ 16th in team assists
2006 Dwayne Wade............. 17th in team assists
2007 Dwayne Wade............. 18th in team assists
2008 Dwayne Wade............. 24th in team assists
2009 Dwayne Wade............. 18th in team assists
2010 Dwayne Wade............. 28th in team assists
2011 Dwayne Wade............. 26th in team assists
2005 Gilbert Arenas............. 28th in team assists
2006 Gilbert Arenas............. 25th in team assists
2007 Gilbert Arenas............. 23rd in team assists
2005 Kobe Bryant................ 22nd in team assists
2009 Kobe Bryant................ 2nd in team assists
2004 Allen Iverson............... 23rd in team assists
2005 Allen Iverson............... 21st in team assists
2006 Allen Iverson............... 18th in team assists
2007 Allen Iverson............... 21st in team assists
2008 Allen Iverson............... 3rd in team assists
2000 Grant Hill..................... 23rd in team assists
2010 Monta Ellis.................. 5th in team assists
2011 Derrick Rose................ 9th in team assists
2013 Carmelo....................... 30th in team assists
2014 Carmelo....................... 28th in team assists
2015 Westbrook................... 25th in team assists
2017 Westbrook................... 25th in team assists
2018 Westbrook................... 28th in team assists
2020 Westbrook................... 29th in team assists
2013 Harden......................... 6th in team assists
2014 Harden......................... 18th in team assists
2015 Harden.......................... 9th in team assists
2016 Harden.......................... 16th in team assists
2017 Harden.......................... 3rd in team assists
2018 Harden.......................... 26th in team assists
2019 Harden.......................... 28th in team assists
2020 Harden.......................... 29th in team assists
2016 Lillard............................ 21st in team assists
2017 Lillard............................ 23rd in team assists
2018 Lillard............................ 30th in team assists
2019 Lillard............................ 25th in team assists
2020 Lillard............................ 30th in team assists
2021 Lillard............................ 30th in team assists
2023 Lillard............................ 22nd in team assists
2017 Isiaih Thomas.............. 4th in team assists
2017 Demar Derozan........... 30th in team assists
2019 Kemba Walker.............. 24th in team assists
2020 Luka Doncic.................. 14th in team assists
2021 Luka Doncic.................. 26th in team assists
2022 Luka Doncic.................. 25th in team assists
2023 Luka Doncic.................. 28th in team assists
2024 Luka Doncic.................. 19th in team assists
2025 Luka Doncic.................. 18th in team assists
2020 Trae Young................... 17th in team assists
2021 Trae Young................... 19th in team assists
2022 Trae Young................... 15th in team assists
2023 Trae Young................... 18th in team assists
2024 Trae Young................... 16th in team assists
2017 Kyrie Irving................... 13th in team assists
2020 Kyrie Irving................... 15th in team assists
2021 Kyrie Irving................... 7th in team assists
2022 Kyrie Irving................... 10th in team assists
2023 Kyrie Irving................... 28th in team assists
2024 Kyrie Irving................... 19th in team assists
2021 Donovan Mitchell........ 23rd in team assists
2022 Donovan Mitchell........ 27th in team assists
2023 Donovan Mitchell........ 19th in team assists
2024 Donovan Mitchell........ 8th in team assists
2021 D'Aaron Fox.................. 12th in team assists
2023 D'Aaron Fox...................3rd in team assists
2024 D'Aaron Fox.................. 7th in team assists
2025 D'Aaron Fox.................. 15th in team assists
2022 Ja Morant...................... 6th in team assists
2023 Ja Morant...................... 9th in team assists
2024 Ja Morant...................... 27th in team assists
2023 Shai-Gilgeous............... 21st in team assists
2024 Shai-Gilgeous............... 11th in team assists
2025 Shai-Gilgeous............... 14th in team assists
2024 Jalen Brunson.............. 29th in team assists
2025 Jalen Brunson.............. 9th in team assists*
2024 Anthony Edwards........ 15th in team assists
2006 Lebron.......................... 24th in team assists
2007 Lebron.......................... 15th in team assists
2008 Lebron.......................... 25th in team assists
2009 Lebron.......................... 20th in team assists
2010 Lebron.......................... 6th in team assists
2011 Lebron.......................... 26th in team assists
2012 Lebron.......................... 21st in team assists
2015 Lebron.......................... 10th in team assists
2016 Lebron.......................... 13th in team assists
2017 Lebron.......................... 13th in team assists
2018 Lebron.......................... 12th in team assists
2019 Lebron.......................... 11th in team assists
2020 Lebron.......................... 10th in team assists
2021 Lebron.......................... 15th in team assists
2022 Lebron.......................... 17th in team assists

18.3 is the average team assist ranking for "ball-dominators", which are players with high volume of unassisted buckets (25+ ppg and less than 40% assisted rate).

If we run this for 25 ppg scorers that have assisted rates of 50% or more, the numbers will be the opposite - these higher-assisted 1st options will average a top 10 ranking in team assists.

A top 5 assist team was achieved 5 times in 96 tries by ball-dominators from 1997 to 2025, and they were all one-offs that normally involved having ANOTHER 25+ scorer that was highly-assisted, such as Shaq in 2002 or Carmelo in 2008... Since low-assisted 1st options can't produce high-assist teams like the Nuggets, Spurs, or Warriors, this means high-assisted players like Jokic, Duncan and Curry are required... Low-assisted players like Luka and Lebron cannot run these winning offenses, which makes them inferior basketball players.. In a vacuum, low-assisted players are inferior and it's intuitive that players who don't involve teammates while scoring will produce weaker teams than players that do..

And again, ball-dominators kill their teammates' versatility by increasing their versatile assisted rate into 1-dimensional, spot-up territory, while also reducing their assists, which prevents a high-assist team like the Spurs, Warriors, or 90's Bulls.

Finally, the myth from deluded fans who lost this debate isn't true - low-assisted players like Luka, Lebron and Westbrook can't just morph into high-assisted players like Curry or Duncan so they can run the ball movement offenses, smh - morphing into another skillset isn't a counter to lacking the superior skillset required for the winningest brand of ball.

Low-assisted players like Luka and Lebron cannot run the winningest offenses of high ball movement and high team assists, so they're inferior to highly-assisted skillsets that run these offenses and win more, such as Jokic, Curry, Duncan, Jordan and Kobe... And it's a false counterargument to say that low-assisted players like Luka and Lebron can just morph into high-assisted players like Curry or Jokic - that's obviously absurd... Accordingly, in a vacuum, high-assisted players are superior to low-assisted players because they involve teammates while scoring, which results in better brand of ball and teams.

Can you show the data on this? Obviously the ranking will be higher, but for transparency it would be nice if you actually showed that the average is a top 10 team ranking. Also showing the correlation to team wins would be good too. But there are other problems with your analysis, either way, as explained below.

Why did you switch to “top 5” here but you were talking about “top 10” above with the higher assisted rate?

Which is what we have been saying: a high assist point guard or point forward paired with the proper team structure will give high assists. And this is not a knock on anyone that is a good playmaker and delivering the assists. That would make absolutely no sense.

This is not true. You just said above that if you pair the playmaker with high assisted targets (above) then that produces high assist teams.

This is a function of coaching and offensive scheme more than any one individual player. You will notice that the Warriors team assist rankings shot through the roof when Kerr took over for Mark Jackson and installed a triangle inspired hybrid offense. Steph Curry was on the team both before and during Kerr. Team assists depend on offensive scheme and the total personnel employed. Not just one player.

All of those teams you mentioned have a coach that employed a high ball movement offense.

This is false. Yes some player could have difficulty learning efficient off ball play but many players will not. LeBron James has had an assisted rate as high as the upper 40’s at various points in his career, all without a coach like Phil Jackson, Pop, or Kerr employing a heavy ball movement offense. And LeBron has 4 titles to show for it. LeBron may be the most diversely skilled player in NBA history and he can and has adapted. He is also statistically very clearly a superior 3 point shooter to Kobe so this idea that he can’t catch a ball and score makes literally no sense.

Excellent troll work though. You got me to respond again. I can’t decide how many nonsensical walls of text that you will need to write next before I respond to correct you again. Let’s put the over/under at 10.

Kerr's hands are tied and he can't run the ball movement offense with a low-assisted player like Luka, Lebron, or Lillard - only a high-assisted player like Curry, Jokic, Jordan or Duncan can unshackle a coach and allow them to run the best brand of ball.

So it always comes back to personnel - the right skillset is required to run the best offense and this skillset is highly-assisted skillset.

First of all, this was done very early itt.... Jordan's teams averaged 8th in assists and the average champion is 7th, while Lebron's teams average more than twice these levels (16th or higher).

Secondly, we already know that all the best teams in history were high-assist teams and high ball movement teams, such as the 80's Lakers, who were #1 in assists every year, or the 90's Bulls, or the Spurs/Warriors dynasties - all of these teams are known for goat ball movement and team assists, but NONE included a low-assisted ball-dominator at 1st option like Luka, Lebron, Lillard, etc... So that's your proof - the entirety of history shows that the best teams were great ball movement teams that required highly-assisted first options and didn't include low-assisted first options.

Ball-dominators aren't close to top 5 or top 10, so it's splitting hairs.

High-scorers that are low-assisted don't have high assist teams - look at the data - citing a couple one-offs in a sea of nearly 100 examples means you lost.

High-scorers that are low-assisted don't have high assist teams - look at the data - citing a couple one-offs in a sea of nearly 100 examples means you lost.

Nonsense... Lebron reached 41% once when he was a contending player from 2006-2021 - otherwise, he wasn't a contending player

Again, you lost... You lost convincingly and it will get worse because the numbers aren't on your side - low-assisted players produce low-assist teams that lose, while high-assisted players can produce high-assist teams and dynasties.. it's clear-cut.... And no, I'm afraid that low-assisted players like Luka and Lebron cannot morph into high-assisted players like Jokic and Curry, smh

Nope. As usual, you have it backwards. It does come back to personnel but personnel is the entire team, not one player. The offensive scheme depends on the coach and the strategy he employs.

Nope. You said that:

Cherry picking Jordan's last two seasons does not work for this. You have to run the analysis with all 25+ ppg scorers with assisted rates of 50% or more. You have to include Joel Embiid, for example, who is an extremely high scoring player (leading the entire league in scoring twice; averaging 30+ ppg 3 times) and highly assisted, yet his teams always rank in the bottom half of the league in assists. For the funnies, and to show how much of a dumbass you are, show Giannis and Durant too. Note the team assists when Durant played for Golden State vs. when he played for OKC. Different coach, different schemes, same player. fallguy, same dumbass.

It's almost like the coach, scheme, and total personnel is the deciding factor for team assists. Not one player.

fallguy, these teams all had coaches that ran a high ball-movement offense, and did not have a "low-assisted ball-dominator" because the scheme did not allow for that.

fallguy, you have to do a statistical comparison to be able to conclude what you said above:

Doing a proper statistical analysis involves comparing the two groups, which would include, for example Joel Embiid and the 76ers. Cherry picking Jordan's last two seasons in the triangle with Phil Jackson is not "splitting hairs". It's dumbass analysis by a dumbass who doesn't know math.

And high scorers that are highly assisted do not always have high assists either as shown by the data. A couple one-offs refutes your entire point and proves it is coach, scheme, and overall team makeup that is the deciding factor. This means you lost, as proven and documented in posts #22999, #23000, and the new thread title.

As you have yourself said, 41% for a point guard/point forward is quite high. It's higher than Jayson Tatum had last year.

Again, no, you lost as proven and documented by posts #22999, #23000, and the new thread title. LeBron doesn't need to "morph" into a highly assisted player; he has already proven he can act in an offense as a highly assisted hybrid point forward. He has literally done it multiple times. And if he played in a high ball movement offense under a coach like Phil Jackson, Pop, or Kerr like Kobe or Jordan or Duncan his results would have obviously been even better.

Seinfeld propping his feet on top of your head as you throw up a brick. Metaphorically speaking of course. Since you edited out the brick just like you edit out the Embiid data.

It's all about 1 player - if the 1st option is a low-assisted player, then the team cannot have a dynasty..

Otoh, if the 1st option is a highly-assisted player, then a dynasty is possible and a ball movement system is possible.

That's it.

It's a mathematical fact that coaches can't run high-assist offenses with a high-volume of unassisted buckets from 1 player, so it just takes 1 player to prevent a great brand of ball.

No one said that highly-assisted 1st options will ALWAYS produce great ball movement, but they're necessary to have great ball movement - you can't be known as a great ball movement team like the Nuggets, Spurs, Warriors or 90's Bulls without a highly-assisted player as 1st option.

If you could show me a great ball movement system led by a ball-dominator, then you win, but you can't because a team cannot run a great ball movement system if 1 player has a high volume of unassisted buckets - you can't get past this.

And again, ball-dominators like Luka and Lebron cannot morph into high-assisted players like Curry and Jokic - the reason that they've never had a ball movement system in their careers isn't due 30+ years of never getting the right coach - it's because they're ball-dominators, and ball-dominators prevent ball movement... Ball-dominance kills ball movement..

The reason that Kerr, Popovich, and Phil could run ball movement systems is because their teams didn't have a ball-dominator, which prevents ball movement systems and dynasties... So you're wrong, and it's getting painfully obvious.

Again, ball-dominators like Luka and Lebron cannot morph into high-assisted players like Curry and Jokic - the reason that they've never had a ball movement system in their careers isn't due 30+ years of never getting the right coach - it's because they're dumb ball-dominators, and ball-dominators prevent ball movement... Ball-dominance kills ball movement..

Ultimately, it's statistical fact that highly-assisted players have higher-assist teams in general.. This is bball 101.. So the case is closed because we've figured out why players like Jokic, Curry, and Jordan are better than Luka, Lebron and SGA - the latter have low-assisted rates that prevent ball movement systems and dynasties..

No, I don't - it's mathematical fact that higher assisted players allow higher assist teams.. There's no need to go outside the check that the sky is blue.

I did the analysis to show that low-assisted 1st options rank 18th in team assists on average, and if I did the analysis for highly-assisted 1st options, it would be about half of that - it would be about 8th or 9th, which was the average rank for a title team when I looked up that info a few years ago.. We also know that Jordan's teams average 8th in assists for his career, compared to 16th for Lebron.

The only way to effectively counter the math is to show me a team that mostly won over a 5 year stretch (dynasty) that contained a low-assisted player as the 1st option..

Otherwise, you lost..

And again, the moderators are just placating you because they're annoyed that I destroyed their goat and their dreams (and yours).. They've changed the thread a million times at this point.
.

You probably don't notice that the crossover was behind-the-back and you lack the knowledge to appreciate how nice that move is.

You're like a dog watching TV - you don't know what you're watching.

.
Here are the 25+ scorers this season that have high-assisted rates:

Jokic........... high-assist teams
Booker....... high-assist teams
Tatum........ high-assist teams
Brown........ high-assist teams
AD.............. high-assist teams and medium since joining Lebron
Durant....... high-assist teams aside from the years with Westbrook/Harden (who are on the other list)

Embiid....... low-assist teams (not sure why; haven't looked into it)
Giannis...... Giannis has a low-assisted rate himself, so he shouldn't be on this list

TLDR - High-scorers with high assisted rates provide teams with the most assisted buckets, thereby facilitating high-assist teams that have an average rank of 9th (approximately).. Otoh, high-scorers with low assisted rates provide teams with the least amount of assisted buckets, which prevents high-assist teams (18th on average).

Out of curiosity and to enhance my knowledge, I am going to list the team assist rankings for all 25 ppg scorers with 50% or more assisted rate since 1997.

fallguy:

Also, fallguy:

At least he’s not smart enough to stop himself from outright admitting in writing he just makes **** up. We don’t even have to check him on it.

To lock or not to lock, that is the question..

FG with some excellent analysis. When your highest scoring player gets assisted less, then the team averages less assists.

Brilliant.

And just to show how important assist percentage is, here's the list for this year.

And last year...

Basically no correlation with success.

.
.
Team assist rankings for every 25 ppg scorer with 50% or more assisted rate, since 1997:

1997 Jordan...................... 2nd in team assists
1997 Mitch Richmond..... 14th in team assists
1997 Glen Rice.................. 4th in team assists
1997 Shaq......................... 11th in team assists
1997 Malone..................... 1st in team assists
1998 Jordan....................... 7th in team assists
1998 Shaq......................... 4th in team assists
1998 Malone..................... 2nd in team assists
1999 Shaq.......................... 7th in team assists
2000 Shaq.......................... 10th in team assists
2000 Vince Carter.............. 6th in team assists
2000 Allen Iverson............ 17th in team assists
2000 Malone...................... 3rd in team assists
2001 Shaq.......................... 9th in team assists
2001 Jerry Stackhouse...... 24th in team assists
2001 Vince Carter.............. 3rd in team assists
2001 Webber...................... 10th in team assists
2001 Pierce........................ 19th in team assists
2002 Shaq.......................... 9th in team assists
2002 Duncan..................... 27th in team assists
2002 Pierce........................ 20th in team assists
2003 Shaq......................... 5th in team assists
2003 Dirk........................... 9th in team assists
2005 Stoudamire.............. 3rd in team assists
2005 Dirk........................... 26th in team assists
2006 Dirk........................... 29th in team assists
2006 Ray Allen.................. 15th in team assists
2006 Michael Redd........... 8th in team assists
2006 Carmelo.................... 3rd in team assists
2007 Pierce........................ 25th in team assists
2007 Carmelo................... 5th in team assists
2007 Michael Redd........... 12th in team assists
2007 Yao Ming................... 16th in team assists
2007 Vince Carter.............. 3rd in team assists
2008 Carmelo................... 3rd in team assists
2008 Stoudamire............... 1st in team assists
2009 Durant...................... 20th in team assists
2009 Danny Granger....... . 9th in team assists
2009 Dirk............................ 8th in team assists
2010 Dirk............................ 3rd in team assists
2010 Monta Ellis................ 5th in team assists
2010 Durant....................... 23rd in team assists
2011 Stoudamire............... 15th in team assists
2011 Durant....................... 24th in team assists
2012 Kevin Love................. 24th in team assists
2013 Durant....................... 21st in team assists
2014 Kevin Love................. 5th in team assists
2015 Durant........................ 25th in team assists
2016 Durant........................ 10th in team assists
2016 Curry........................... 1st in team assists
2016 Cousins....................... 4th in team assists
2017 Cousins....................... 16th in team assists
2017 AD................................ 12th in team assists
2017 Durant......................... 1st in team assists
2017 Curry........................... 1st in team assists
2017 Karl Anthony.............. 9th in team assists
2018 Cousins....................... 3rd in team assists
2018 AD................................ 3rd in team assists
2018 Durant........................ 1st in team assists
2018 Curry........................... 1st in team assists
2019 Curry........................... 1st in team assists
2019 AD................................ 3rd in team assists
2019 Embiid......................... 4th in team assists
2019 Bradley Beal............... 6th in team assists
2020 AD................................ 10th in team assists
2020 Karl-Anthony.............. 20th in team assists
2021 Jokic............................. 5th in team assists
2021 Durant......................... 7th in team assists
2021 Curry............................ 1st in team assists
2021 Embiid......................... 22nd in team assists
2021 Zion............................. 10th in team assists
2022 Jokic............................. 3rd in team assists
2022 Durant......................... 10th in team assists
2022 Curry............................ 5th in team assists
2022 Embiid......................... 21st in team assists
2023 Julius Randle............... 28th in team assists
2023 Durant......................... 13th in team assists
2023 Curry............................ 1st in team assists
2023 Embiid......................... 16th in team assists
2023 Zion............................. 11th in team assists
2023 Jaylen Brown............. 7th in team assists
2023 Markkenan................ 10th in team assists
2023 AD................................ 15th in team assists
2024 Jokic............................. 3rd in team assists
2024 Durant......................... 12th in team assists
2024 Curry............................ 4th in team assists
2024 Embiid......................... 24th in team assists

10.2 average for high-scorers that have high assisted rates, and 18.3 average for high-scorers with low-assisted rates.

It's analysis worthy of just locking this thread up, once and for all.

What more proof do we need?

Great ball movement requires many assisted buckets from the top scorer, so 1st options with low-assisted skillsets and many unassisted buckets cannot run ball movement systems like the Spurs, Warriors or 90's Bulls.. Highly-assisted 1st options are required like Curry or Duncan, and low-assisted players like Luka and Lebron cannot morph into these high-assisted players.. So they're just stuck running low ball movement and perennially-losing brand of ball.

Luka, Lebron, Harden, and every other ball-dominator didn't get unlucky for a hundred straight seasons by not getting a ball movement coach - the problem is the PLAYER and their low-assisted skillset that ties every coach's hands.

That's literally why Lebron, Luka, Harden and that type of player is inferior to Jokic, Curry, Jordan, and that type of player (highly-assisted) - you just summarized it perfectly..

It's better to involve teammates while you score than leave them standing around because it all comes back to the attrition battle - the great ball movement of Duncan, Curry and Jordan wears down defenses and leaves them less capacity for offense, whereas Lebron and Luka's ball-dominamce lets a defense rest, so they have more capacity to "get hot" offensively... And that's the story of Lebron's career - some opponent "gets hot" against the plodding, rudimentary bron-ball.. Carry on.

You just cited 1 season to make a "correlation", while my argument uses all the data since 97' to draw a correlation between the 1st option's assisted rate and team assists.

And of course there's a correlation between team assists and winning because the average champion ranks 7th in assists and it's bball 101 that ball movement produces the best chemistry and teammate performance.. Ball movement has been a primary tenet of the game since it's inception and every dominant champion or dynasty had great ball movement that requires many assisted buckets from the top scoring option (high assisted rate).. If the top scoring option has many unassisted buckets, then a high assist team isn't possible - this is intuitive.. Show me the great dynasty that DIDN'T use great ball movement and used a ball-dominator with many unassisted buckets instead - such a dynasty doesn't exist because it's a horrible and simpleton brand of ball.

All the dynasties in history play the same way - ball movement - so that's a big correlation.

Secondly, championship teams tend to have higher assist rankings than the average team and be higher-assist teams in general... So that's a 2nd big correlation.

Thirdly, all of Lebron's playoff losses for the last 10 years show deficits in team assists, and mostly big deficits - it's a big correlation that more ball movement beat less for 10 straight years.

Again, it's bball 101 that ball movement is a tenet of the game that produces the best teammate performance and chemistry, so the idea that there's no correlation between ball movement or team assists and winning is the opposite of how the game works.. It's like saying the sky is pink.

That's false because I look at WHAT WINS (ball movement, chemistry, defense, clutch, leadership/character) and base my all-time rankings on the guys that promote these winning qualities the best.

Why would I care about losing skills like ball-domination because there is actually no correlation between high individual assists and winning titles - there's actually a big correlation between high individual assists and losing titles and Finals.... There's a bigger correlation of 1st options winning with 5-7 APG than 8+ APG.

That's exactly what happened for the first 9 years of their respective playoff careers (06-14' vs 85-93') - Jordan averaged more assists than Lebron in the playoffs until 2015 when Curry's spacing era made offense easier for everyone - only then did Lebron start to average more assists than MJ in the playoffs.

I don't give Jordan props for this because they both had 2 chips thru 9 playoff runs - Jordan didn't start outpacing Lebron in titles until his assists went down and Lebron's went up (lebron got more ball-dominant from 15' onwards)..

4 of the top 10 assist teams had losing records??... That doesn't say anything... All of your such examples were poor uses of data and some of them made the opposite case..

Furthermore, teams offset weak talent with chemistry and ball movement, so many high-assist teams could be less talented and have an overachieving record.. So your methodology is flawed in a variety of ways.

The larger and quite obvious correlations are that title teams are generally higher-assist teams and all the greatest teams in history play the same way (phenomenal ball movement and generally higher-assist teams).
.