Ukraine-Russia War Take 2
Here is what the preliminary take on the Ukraine thread disappearing is:
The site was hit with a massive spam attack where hundreds of spam threads were created. In the case where, for example, I see a single spam thread and delete it, that is called a soft delete, and mods can still see them but forum members cannot. Those deletion can be undone.
When a massive attack hits with hundreds of threads, an admin uses a different procedure where the hundreds of spam threads are merged and then hard deleted, where the threads are gone, and no note is left behind. As I have mentioned with my own experience of just soft deleting a large number of posts, sometimes a post or thread gets checked or merged accidentally and is deleted by mistake. Dealing with hundreds of spam threads takes a sledgehammer, not a scalpel.
It appears that our Ukraine thread may have gotten caught up in that recent net of spam threads. If so, it is likely gone for good. I cant say this for sure, and am awaiting comments from admins on this issue. Yes, this sucks. And hopefully there was some other software glitch that caused the disappearance, and we may recover it in the future.
But in the meantime, I have created this new Ukraine-Russia War thread to enable the conversation to continue. Obviously continuity with earlier discussions will be lost. There is no way around that. So as best as possible, let's pick up the conversation with recent events and go from there.
If you have any questions about this, please post them in the mod thread, not here. Let's keep this thread going with posts about the war, not the disappearance of the old thread.
Thanks.
The Americans lied, and over the next two-decades expanded NATO eastwards in five separate waves.
lol Putin/Victor bot.
Good grief, every time I think I've seen the dumbest explanation of NATO's existence from a pro-Russian bot, I see something that is dumber.
Bottom line is that Russia has been an aggressor and oppressor to the countries around them since 1939 and they're still doing it to this day. Any country that is eligible to join NATO - which is done on their own freewill btw- is a message to Russia to f**k off, leave us alone.
You cherry pick convenient sources. This is a complex topic and you can start from basic
and
Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev, who participated in the 1990 negotiations, subsequently spoke out about the existence of a "guarantee of non-expansion of NATO to the east" inconsistently, confirming its existence in some interviews[8][9] and refuting in others.[10][11]
P.S. Btw how are those North Koreans soldiers doing? Or someone was duped with some minor propaganda FUD?
You cherry pick convenient sources. This is a complex topic and you can start from basic
andSoviet President Mikhail Gorbachev, who participated in the 1990 negotiations, subsequently spoke out about the existence of a "guarantee of non-expansion of NATO to the east" inconsistently, confirming its existence in some interviews[8][9] and refutin
There never was any official deals , just talks .
Now if u believe official deals/treaties are cherry picking…
I didn’t cherry pick sources, many are saying the same and Gorbatchev himself .
Now why don’t you show us sign documents/treaties about nato being restricted of any kind of adhesion towards eastern territories ?
Which btw you know, those great treaties and deals Putin loved to break the last 2 decades…..
As for North Korean soldiers in Russia, many sources worldwide corroborates there are around 10k soldier near the border .
You suggesting it’s a total lie ?
Btw
Ps: all those northern countries (Finland,Sweden) joined lately nato too, you think they were obliged by the US and nato to join or by Putin agressions toward neighbours throughout the years ?
A little history lesson because it is clear your reading of recent events doesn't go beyond the biased narrative of MSN.
After the breakup of the old Soviet Union, the transatlantic NATO alliance promised Russian president Gorbachev that NATO would not expand eastwards if Russia agreed to the reunification of both west and east Germany. The Americans lied, and over the next two-decades expanded NATO eastwards in five separate waves.
It has to be remembered that NATO was a defensive organisation d
Tl;dr version: Nato/ West/Ukraine bad
Russia/Putin good.
You cherry pick convenient sources. This is a complex topic and you can start from basic
andSoviet President Mikhail Gorbachev, who participated in the 1990 negotiations, subsequently spoke out about the existence of a "guarantee of non-expansion of NATO to the east" inconsistently, confirming its existence in some interviews[8][9] and refutin
I'm sorry your leader lied to you about a guarantee.
But do you ever wonder why all those countries wanted to join NATO?
Isn't Georgia going through the same thing? Sometimes the simplest explanation is the most correct one; which is that Russia sucks, being a Russian satellite nation sucks, so most of the people in most of these nations are fighting for freedom from Russian suckiness.
given this is the Ukraine thread, seems like being a Western vassal state sucks. US is telling them to drop their "mobilization" age to like 19 btw.
given this is the Ukraine thread, seems like being a Western vassal state sucks. US is telling them to drop their "mobilization" age to like 19 btw.
U.S. sucks so much that’s why they all want to join nato except dictatorship like Russia, China, North Korea , etc .
So ok US sucks but they far away from the bottom of the barrel , which is fine .
No one can be perfect like you .
given this is the Ukraine thread, seems like being a Western vassal state sucks. US is telling them to drop their "mobilization" age to like 19 btw.
Well, clearly being a Russian vassal state sucks way more, as is evidenced by the millions of people across several nations trying to break free.
But Western Europe deciding to de-industrialize and make themselves irrelevant on the world stage, and the US engaging in appeasement of bad guys like Iran, Russia and China has certainly made the world a much worse place over the last couple decades.
Well, first of all a country (or anyone for that matter) has the right to want to be safe and feel safe and protected. Using this to blackmail other sovereign nations into becoming buffer states or else face invasion and destruction seems to be the problem and why so many eastern european countries mistrust the russians.
I can see an alternate reality where a more benevolent Russia who embraced diplomacy and compromising and, with enough time, those other countries would have been much more open for closer ties. *
*Americans will probably notice a subtle irony.
There never was any official deals , just talks .
Now if u believe official deals/treaties are cherry picking…
I didn’t cherry pick sources, many are saying the same and Gorbatchev himself .
How is it not cherry picking when you say "False I stop read after this" and send ONE article from extremely pro-Ukraine US democrat?
https://x.com/steven_pifer
So I suggested you to start from Wikipedia with at least MULTIPLE sources (even though Wiki in general has dominating pro-western moderation, but it is ok)
Now why don’t you show us sign documents/treaties about nato being restricted of any kind of adhesion towards eastern territories ?
I didn't make such statement and I don't oppose it
Which btw you know, those great treaties and deals Putin loved to break the last 2 decades…..
Russia mostly just repeats after the West. Kosovo -> Crimea, Iraq military operation -> Ukraine military operation. If you are to blame Russia, you better be consistent and blame the West too. For example I don't blame anyone, in politics like in poker sharks eat fish, natural order
As for North Korean soldiers in Russia, many sources worldwide corroborates there are around 10k soldier near the border .
You suggesting it’s a total lie ?
Btw
This is exactly the issue I am trying to pinpoint. Your "many sources worldwide" are just the echo-chamber of one-party narrative sources. Just like democrats this year were echo-chambered to think they were the majority. So you cling to some random beautiful numbers like 10k and use it in arguments ("the need of North Korea soldiers to defend Russia borders") without seeing actual PROOF of them DEFENDING the borders. This Ukraine war is the most tech-dron-media-modern in history atm and it would be impossible to hide combat footage of 10k NK solders, but there is none. Thats why I said it is mostly a political move https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Kore..., not a "we run out of soldiers in Russia, lets bring North Koreans"
__
Russian terrorists hit Zaporizhzhia with guided bombs, one of them hit auto repair station, civilian cars are burning.
7 people killed, 4 more wounded.
Before that two hours ago Russian 'Iskander-M' ballistic missile hit Kryvyi Rih. 1 killed, 13 wounded.
Perhaps there might be less terror in Syria with Russian withdraw. But for Ukraine that won't change much until these terrorists are stopped with combined effort of the whole Free World.
The issue is not on how much Russia lies, it's just that everyone lies and some people act like the west has more credibility (because it tells less lies on a % basis?).
How is it not cherry picking when you say "False I stop read after this" and send ONE article from extremely pro-Ukraine US democrat?
[url]https://x.com/steven_pifer[/url]
So I suggested you to start from Wikipedia with at least MULTIPLE sources (even though Wiki in general has dominating pro-western moderation, but it is ok)
I didn't make such statement and I don't oppose it
Russia mostly just repeats after the West. Kosovo -> Crimea, Iraq military operation -> Ukraine military operation. If you a
Yawn .
I post one link and there is many so I can just send you a google link with all of them and have fun ?
And the funny thing is , u said u never said u made claims about formal treaties or deal being made for nato not expanding east ? Lol….
So in effect no such deal was ever made !
As for the rest no one said US is perfect .
But US respect most treaties then Russia does .
That’s why they rather join US (and western world) then Russia .
Here is an easy question for you , because I keep hearing nonsense Russia propaganda on news ….
If Russia decide to stop « defending itself » by retreating back to 2021 former lands today , you believe Ukraine and US would continue this war ?
Answering that simple question will probably crash down any arguments you have on putting the blame on the U.S. .
Furthermore , Putin made such a big deal
About nato he just entice all his other northern borders to be nato with Finland and Sweden to be part of It lol.
Are they next u think once Ukraine is done because it’s the same argument on justifying Russia invasion.
Echo chamber ?
Yeah I guess I am in an echo chamber that covers around 75-80% of all the news media worldwide .
While you pretend you aren’t when you have like Russia news (which are threaten by jail time if they don’t propagate Russia regime propaganda) and some others that aren’t an echo chambers ?
Yawn .
I post one link and there is many so I can just send you a google link with all of them and have fun ?
And the funny thing is , u said u never said u made claims about formal treaties or deal being made for nato not expanding east ? Lol….
So in effect no such deal was ever made !
Yawn, why exclamation; while raging, you probably didn't get me. I said I didn't oppose the quoted statement. I will rephrase so we are not lost in translation: I agree that NATO was never restricted of any kind of adhesion towards eastern territories by signed documents/treaties
Debatably
Here is an easy question for you , because I keep hearing nonsense Russia propaganda on news ….
If Russia decide to stop « defending itself » by retreating back to 2021 former lands today , you believe Ukraine and US would continue this war ?
Answering that simple question will probably crash down any arguments you have on putting the blame on the U.S. .
Retreating back to 2021 would mean a Ukrainian victory according to https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comment..., but Ukraine most likely would want Crimea back too in this case. But let's simplify and imagine Ukraine gets everything back to 1991 borders and joins EU/NATO. The answer to your question then - that would be enough for Ukraine and US. But which arguments are crashed now exactly?
Furthermore , Putin made such a big deal
About nato he just entice all his other northern borders to be nato with Finland and Sweden to be part of It lol.
Are they next u think once Ukraine is done because it’s the same argument on justifying Russia invasion.
Finland and Sweden in NATO is not a big problem, but Ukraine is (even in 2021 borders without Crimea, thats why Russia keeps fighting). You being a distant person for that ex-USSR region, I understand your shallow knowledge of it
Echo chamber ?
Yeah I guess I am in an echo chamber that covers around 75-80% of all the news media worldwide .
Yeah exactly, to avoid being echo-chambered start with Wiki/Twitter/Forums. Like Musk said - Twitter is like open-sourcing the news
While you pretend you aren’t when you have like Russia news (which are threaten by jail time if they don’t propagate Russia regime propaganda) and some others that aren’t an echo chambers ?
I consume information from every party in that sense, the goal is to read everything and doubt everyone, be suspicious and test every claim
__
Russian terrorists hit office building in center of Zaporizhzhia with 'Iskander' missile. There were beauty salon, shopping stores and healthcare clinic (there's a signboard MRI/medical ultrasound on second video).
3 people killed, 11 wounded. People are under the rubble.
It's hard each time to pick up words after these strikes on civilian targets happening everyday. Especially when it became the norm for the world.
If the West doesn't stop it in Ukraine now, in some years the same will happen on its territory.
Yawn, why exclamation; while raging, you probably didn't get me. I said I didn't oppose the quoted statement. I will rephrase so we are not lost in translation: I agree that NATO was never restricted of any kind of adhesion towards eastern territories by signed documents/treaties
Debatably
Retreating back to 2021 would mean a Ukrainian victory according to https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comment..., but Ukraine most likely would want Crimea back
lol I’m not raging .
The whole point was it legal or not for nato to accept foreign eastern countries (expansion?) to join ?
I’m glad you admit it’s was ok despite what Putin was saying …
So we have another victor claiming on the International front Russia and us are the same international laws and treaties , wow…
It isn’t about winning or losing , it’s about Russia isn’t defending itself , it’s attacking !
To claim it’s a victory to Ukraine just by keeping its 2021 borders should shows it’s actually Ukraine that is defending themselve not Russia !
Finland and Sweden aren’t a much of threat because they aren’t , just like Ukraine .
Finland share border which is the claim Putin said to justify invading Ukraine , not because one is more threatening then the others .
The whole problem is simply Putin do not ,and never recognize, Ukraine has its own country but part of Russia .
Has for the rest thx for the heads up , if you believe I’m
In a echo chambers it’s fine .
Despite what exactly? He too didn't say anything about signed documents/treaties on NATO expansion.
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Munic... - "I think it is obvious that NATO expansion does not have any relation with the modernisation of the Alliance itself or with ensuring security in Europe. On the contrary, it represents a serious provocation that reduces the level of mutual trust. And we have the right to ask: against whom is this expansion intended? And what happened to the assurances our western partners made after the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact? Where are those declarations today? No one even remembers them"
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Geor... - Putin said that NATO's enlargement towards Russia "would be taken in Russia as a direct threat to the security of our country"
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Address_co... - Putin further stated that "Ukraine joining NATO is a direct threat to Russia's security," and that NATO had failed to uphold promises not to expand into Eastern Europe.
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_conduct... - "Further expansion of the NATO infrastructure and the beginning of military development in Ukraine's territories are unacceptable for us. The problem, of course, is not NATO itself – it is only an instrument of US foreign policy. The problem is that in the territories adjacent to us – territories that were historically ours, I emphasise – an 'anti-Russia' hostile to us is being created, placed under full external control"
So it's always assurances/promises, and not signed documents/treaties.
It isn’t about winning or losing , it’s about Russia isn’t defending itself , it’s attacking !
To claim it’s a victory to Ukraine just by keeping its 2021 borders should shows it’s actually Ukraine that is defending themselve not Russia !
Finland and Sweden aren’t a much of threat because they aren’t , just like Ukraine .
Finland share border which is the claim Putin said to justify invading Ukraine , not because one is more threatening then the others .
The whole problem is simply Putin do not ,and
You can check this map and see that 1989 UkraineSSR had 11.5 millions of ethnic Russians (22% of its population with Crimea almost fully covered).
Finland/Sweden were never parts of USSR and don't have many ethnic Russians, difference with Ukraine is huge
Ukraine is a sovereign nation. Doesn't matter if they've ethnic Russians, Putin had no right or justification aggressively invading another country. No matter how many excuses you make for him.
Ukraine is a sovereign nation. Doesn't matter if they've ethnic Russians, Putin had no right or justification aggressively invading another country. No matter how many excuses you make for him.
Am I right that to assume that you condemn all invasions of sovereign nations from here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_in... and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_in...
For example, no excuses for USA or Israel too?
Am I right that to assume that you condemn all invasions of sovereign nations from here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_in... and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_in...
For example, no excuses for USA or Israel too?
Most of them, yes.
Almost feel bad for Putin, dude just gets bullied and owned in geopolitics. He can't even keep his direct neighbors that have cultural ties as puppet states. NATO/US Chads just coup his ass at will so he has to do a full on invasion. No tact. He had a good thing going in Syria, even got himself a port in the med for a little bit but once again western Chads just called in some proxies and broke up that little party. Still has Mali though I guess. Maybe he can work something out in Libya? Guy is just scraping crumbs off the floor.
Am I right that to assume that you condemn all invasions of sovereign nations from here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_in... and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_in...
For example, no excuses for USA or Israel too?
I'm not interested in your whataboutism on a thread entitled Ukraine-Russia War.
That said, yeah, sure I was against the US invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq and marched in protest against both, which I had the freedom to do, unlike in Russia where even referring to this as a war would get me 15 years in prison. See how easy that was?
Make as many excuses for Putin and Russian aggression all you like. Only one you'll convince is victor.
Most of them, yes.
Almost feel bad for Putin, dude just gets bullied and owned in geopolitics. He can't even keep his direct neighbors that have cultural ties as puppet states. NATO/US Chads just coup his ass at will so he has to do a full on invasion. No tact. He had a good thing going in Syria, even got himself a port in the med for a little bit but once again western Chads just called in some proxies and broke up that little party. Still has Mali though I guess. Maybe he can work something ou
Lol true, USSR lost the Cold War - it's a fact. Though Russia still managed to remain in top3 regarding military strength, we will see how it goes in the future
Lol true, USSR lost the Cold War - it's a fact. Though Russia still managed to remain in top3 regarding military strength, we will see how it goes in the future
It's been going swimmingly for them so far
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties...
Hope it was worth it
