LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
fallguy, showing data that Bill Russell's Celtics had team assist rankings between 1 and 9, in a league that had 8 teams through 1961 and 9 teams through 1966. It is these analysis skills that make me wonder why fallguy had a failed career as an analyst. ��
Russell still had #1 assist teams on two different occasions, so those Celtics had the #1 assist team capability, historic ball movement and higher assist rankings over the long-term that dynasties require.
Otoh, it's a statistical fact that low-assisted 1st options like Luka and Lebron cannot produce #1 assist teams, historic ball movement and higher assist rankings over the long-term that dynasties require, so they're inferior to the best highly-assisted players that have the assisted skillsets required to produce the best basketball (dynasties).
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NBA dynasties have been built when elite roster construction, elite coaching,
and elite scheme and strategy come together.
^^^ But the scheme and strategy of dynasties is always #1 assist capability, ground-breaking ball movement, and higher assist rankings over the long-term, which low-assisted 1st options cannot provide, as proven earlier itt... checkmate.. These are historical and mathematical facts.
The inability of low-assisted 1st options to produce higher assist rankings over the long-term that dynasties require is why they're inferior to the best highly-assisted players, who have the assisted skillsets required to produce dynasties (the best basketaball).
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It's a statistical fact that low-assisted 1st options like Luka and Lebron cannot produce #1 assist teams, all-time ball movement and higher assist rankings over the long-term that dynasties require, so they're inferior to the best highly-assisted players that produce all these things and therefore all the dynasties (the best basketball).
https://www.bmj.com/about-bmj/resources-...
One can measure, statistically, how two variables are related by using something called a “correlation”. When one variable changes but the other does not, we say they have “no correlation”. When they change in opposite directions, we say they are “negatively correlated”.
When we apply this very basic statistical concept to the arguments you have been making, we see that assists and assisted fg% have very small, no, or even negative correlation to wins and team success.
Therefore, we have conclusively proven using data and standard statistical methodology that you have been wrong for the past several years and several thousand posts about… literally everything. This is not an exaggeration and I totally understand why you’re becoming increasingly desperate.
https://www.bmj.com/about-bmj/resources-...
One can measure, statistically, how two variables are related by using something called a “correlation”. When one variable changes but the other does not, we say they have “no correlation”. When they change in opposite directions, we say they are “negatively correlated”.
When we apply this very basic statistical concept to the arguments you hav
Checkmate.
When we apply this very basic statistical concept to the arguments you have been making, we see that assists and assisted fg% have very small, no, or even negative correlation to wins
No one said anything about whether assists are correlated with wins - that's a topic that you introduced because you couldn't refute the argument being made that assists were correlated with the best basketball (dynasties), something we proved itt by looking at all the dynasties.
Specifically, every "dynasty" in history that mostly won over a material stretch of 5 years was correlated with team assists by virtue of having #1 assist capability, historic ball movement, and a high average assist ranking over the long-term... Accordingly, since elite-scorers that are low-assisted cannot produce this caliber of team assists, they cannot produce dynasties and are therefore inferior to the best players from higher-assisted skillsets that can (and did).
Finally, you begged me to post the team assist ranks for high-assisted 1st options after I posted it for the low-assisted ones, yet you won't show your work that you claim to have performed regarding the correlation between team assists or team assisted rate and regular season wins.. I showed my work to prove that assists were correlated with the best basketball (dynasties), so you should post your work to prove that assists aren't necessarily correlated with regular season wins in general.. My calculations and yours would be interesting insight in my view.. Having the stats linked to the source data would be great too, like I did.. Thanks in advance.
FG conveniently forgot to include the Lakers in his list above. Reason why...
Shaq/Kobe era
1999 - 8th
2000 - 10th
2001 - 9th
2002 - 9th
2003 - 5th
2004 - 4th
Average of around 8th. Wow!
It's also highly noticable that the talk of assist percentage has just gone out the window, and now we are just talking about total assists, which obviously favours higher teams because they score more.
The goalposts keep shifting itt, its quite the sight to behold!
57' Russell............. 2nd
58' Russell............. 3rd
59' Russell............. 1st
60' Russell............. 2nd
61' Russell............. 4th
62' Russell............. 3rd
63' Russell............. 1st
64' Russell............. 4th
65' Russell............. 2nd
66' Russell............. 7th
67' Russell............. 2nd
68' Russell............. 9th
69' Russell............. 5th
___________________________
Average................. 3.5
Wilt
60' Wilt............. 3rd
61' Wilt............. 3rd
62' Wilt............. 2nd
63' Wilt............. 3rd
64' Wilt............. 3rd
65' Wilt............. Too hard to work out as he got traded midseason
66' Wilt............. 2nd
67' Wilt............. 1st
68' Wilt............. 1st
69' Wilt............. 2nd
Average.............2.2
But I'm confused. This doesn't make any sense?????????????????
Who cares about marginal teams or Lebron winning 1 or 2 more games - Lebron is being compared to the best, so it's all about what it takes to play the BEST basketball (dynasties)... No one said that a team with 15th assist ranking will win more games than the 20th assist team - that's junior high logic and I would never say that .. The way that dynastic ball movement is shown statistically is over the long-term, such as a high average assist ranking over a career (which all the dynasty 1st options have, while the low-assisted ball-dominators don't).
FG conveniently forgot to include the Lakers in his list above. Reason why...
Shaq/Kobe era
1999 - 8th
2000 - 10th
2001 - 9th
2002 - 9th
2003 - 5th
2004 - 4th
Average of around 8th. Wow!
7th in a 30-team league is high because we're comparing it to the worst rankings ever - dynasties have assist rankings that average between 2nd and 10th over long time periods of time, while low-assisted ball-dominators have averages from 18-26th.. It's quite a contrast but obviously it isn't surprising that high scorers with many unassisted buckets (low-assisted players) will produce lower-assist teams.. This would otherwise be fine except it precludes them from producing the best basketball (dynasties).
57' Russell............. 2nd
58' Russell............. 3rd
59' Russell............. 1st
60' Russell............. 2nd
61' Russell............. 4th
62' Russell............. 3rd
63' Russell............. 1st
64' Russell............. 4th
65' Russell............. 2nd
66' Russell............. 7th
67' Russell............. 2nd
68' Russell............. 9th
69' Russell............. 5th
___________________________
Average................. 3.5
Wilt
60' Wilt............. 3rd
61' Wilt............. 3rd
62' Wilt............. 2nd
63
Again, not every team that has a high average assist ranking over a long-term will be a dynasty, but every dynasty will have high average assist ranking over a long-term...
Hope that makes sense... And since low-assisted scorers like Luka and Lebron cannot produce high-assist teams, they cannot produce dynasties and therefore are inferior to higher-assisted skillsets that can.
Spurs dynasty
99' Duncan............ 6th
00' Duncan........... 16th
01' Duncan........... 16th
02' Duncan........... 27th
03' Duncan........... 22nd
04' Duncan........... 19th
05' Duncan........... 14th
06' Duncan........... 10th
07' Duncan........... 11th
Also 3.5 rating for Bill Russell out of a 9 team league isn't great. Just above league average.
fallguy,
Do you understand that team assists are heavily correlated with points? And that the best teams tend to score a lot of points? Basketball games are won by outscoring the opponent.
Why are you arguing about team assists now rather than assisted fg%? You spent hundreds, if not thousands of posts arguing that assisted fg% is the key to winning basketball.
When I showed that assisted fg% is negatively correlated to team wins in some seasons, and very very minimally correlated in others, you suddenly started arguing about team assists (which are heavily correlated with points, as explained above) instead. Why is that fallguy?
https://www.bmj.com/about-bmj/resources-...
One can measure, statistically, how two variables are related by using something called a “correlation”. When one variable changes but the other does not, we say they have “no correlation”. When they change in opposite directions, we say they are “negatively correlated”.
When we apply this very basic statistical concept to the arguments you hav
fallguy,
Here is my post explaining what a statistical correlation is, if you have never heard of that concept before and therefore do not understand why it’s important. Please let us know if you have any questions about extremely rudimentary statistical methodology.
fallguy,
Here is my post explaining what a statistical correlation is, if you have never heard of that concept before and therefore do not understand why it’s important. Please let us know if you have any questions about extremely rudimentary statistical methodology.
No one said anything about whether assists are correlated with regular season wins - that's a topic that you introduced because you couldn't refute the argument being made that assists were correlated with the best basketball (dynasties), something we proved itt by looking at all the dynasties.
Specifically, every "dynasty" in history was correlated with team assists by virtue of having #1 assist capability and a high assist ranking over the long-term... Since Lebron, Luka and other low-assisted scorers cannot produce this caliber of team assists, they cannot produce dynasties and are inferior to the best players from higher-assisted skillsets that can (and did).
Finally, you begged me to post the team assist ranks for high-assisted 1st options after I posted it for the low-assisted ones, yet you won't show your work that you claim to have performed regarding the correlation between team assists or team assisted rate and regular season wins.. I showed my work to prove that assists were correlated with the best basketball (dynasties), so you should post your work to prove that assists aren't necessarily correlated with regular season wins in general.. My calculations and yours would be interesting insight in my view.. Having the stats linked to the source data would be great too, like I did.. Thanks in advance.
fallguy,
Here is my post explaining what a statistical correlation is, if you have never heard of that concept before and therefore do not understand why it’s important. Please let us know if you have any questions about extremely rudimentary statistical methodology.
Who cares about marginal teams or Lebron winning 1 or 2 more games - Lebron is being compared to the best, so it's all about what it takes to play the BEST basketball (dynasties)... No one said that a team with 15th assist ranking will win more games than the 20th assist team - that's junior high logic and I would never say that .. The way that dynastic ball movement is shown statistically is over the long-term, such as a high average assist ranking over a career (which all the dynasty 1st options have, while the low-assisted ball-dominators don't).
Also 3.5 rating for Bill Russell out of a 9 team league isn't great. Just above league average.
Russell's Celtics had #1 assist capability by virtue of being #1 in 59' and 63'.
#1 assist capability is a hallmark of every dynasty, along with a high assist ranking over the long-term, and a reputation for historic ball movement.. Since Luka, Lebron, and all low-assisted scorers can't produce this caliber of team assists, they can't produce dynasties and are inferior to the best players from higher-assisted skillsets that can (and did)
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Wow guys, I just found out that Lebron is "taking a break" wink wink... Surely fraud is in the air, or we made him retire... He finally opened up this thread for the first time and the first thing he read was:
"#1 assist capability is a hallmark of every dynasty, along with a high assist ranking over the long-term, and a reputation for historic ball movement.. Since Luka, Lebron, and all low-assisted scorers can't produce this caliber of team assists, they can't produce dynasties and are inferior to the best players from higher-assisted skillsets that can (and did)."
And he quit just like that... He realized that his skillset plays futilely on the NBA level in the sense that it cannot produce the best basketball (dynasty).. I'm sorry guys - I didn't mean to make your hero quit.
Thread Cliffs
Every dynasty had historic ball movement like the Spurs, Warriors or 90's Bulls, but guys like Luka, Lebron, and other low-assisted scorers can't play that way as evidenced by their significantly lower team assist levels than dynasties, and the fact that there's never been a ball-dominator achieve a high ball movement team like we see from dynasties.. It's impossible to great ball movement when your low-assisted skillset of many unassisted buckets leaves teammates standing around in spot-up roles and lowers their assists.. Since low-assisted scorers cannot produce the best basketball (dynasties), they're inferior to the best players of higher-assisted skillsets that can (and did).
Revised Thread Cliffs
Every dynasty had historic ball movement like the Spurs, Warriors or 90's Bulls, but guys like Luka, Lebron, and other low-assisted scorers can't play that way as evidenced by their significantly lower team assist levels than dynasties, and the fact that there's never been a ball-dominator achieve a high ball movement team like we see from dynasties.. Rather than letting the ball move, ball-dominators have a high volume of unassisted buckets that leaves teammates standing around in spot-up roles and lowers their assists.. Since these low-assisted scorers cannot produce the ball movement needed for the best basketball (dynasties), they're inferior to the best players of higher-assisted skillsets that can (and did).
This is fun. Let’s try another angle and see what comes out.
I’m going to list two lineups. Of the two, which one would perform relatively better with a high ball-movement offense, giving every player on the floor a roughly equal opportunity to score (thereby increasing assist rate):
Team 1
LeBron James
Zydrunas Ilgauskas
Boobie Gibson
Devin Brown
Drew Gooden
Team 2
Stephen Curry
Kevin Durant
Draymond Green
Andre Iguodala
Klay Thompson
Consider this the world’s easiest basketball IQ test. Remember, the question is which team would have greater benefit from high ball movement within their offense. Simply type ‘1’ or ‘2’. You lose points for walls of text that obfuscate and have nothing to do with the question asked.
Now it's "assist capacity".
Amazing.
Revised Thread Cliffs
Every dynasty had historic ball movement like the Spurs, Warriors or 90's Bulls, but guys like Luka, Lebron, and other low-assisted scorers can't play that way as evidenced by their significantly lower team assist levels than dynasties, and the fact that there's never been a ball-dominator achieve a high ball movement team like we see from dynasties.. Rather than letting the ball move, ball-dominators have a high volume of unassisted buckets that leaves teammates standing ar
Except the Spurs don't. You literally posted the stats that during their 4 chips in 8 year span they topped out at 8th best.
And no, don't include the 1 chip in 7 year span as part of it. In fact you'd argue that when they went from a team with low assists to a team with high assists they actually went to winning a lot to (using your words) mainly losing.
Teams with the best and most balanced roster construction, and a good coach who employs a high ball-movement offense will have the highest “assist capacity”.
Teams with one elite offensive player and then other weaker players, or even other solid offensive role players, would have lower “assist capacity”, and it would benefit them far more to have the ball in the hands of the elite player.
fallguy knows the truth. He is converging on the exact same point we have been making with his own arguments. He is just tip-toeing and tap dancing around saying it because he doesn’t have the integrity to admit he was wrong that a statistic that is negatively correlated with wins isn’t actually the key to winning basketball. He’s having a panic attack because of how dumb he looks. To be fair, this has been a LOT of time for any one person to spend looking dumb on the internet. I think we’d all be having a melt down if we looked that dumb for that long. And for fallguy, it’s now documented for everyone to see forever. Years of dumb, all in one place.
