LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
.
.
LEBRON RECEIVED 4 GUYS THAT WERE BETTER THAN 1990 PIPPEN:
05' HUGHES.................. 21.6 PER... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP... 4.3 BPM... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/6/5.... No All-D
09' MO WILLIAMS........ 17.2 PER... 0.165 WS/48... 3.1 VORP... 2.3 BPM... 17/3/4
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5
09' JAMISON................. 20.6 PER... 0.126 WS/48... 2.8 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 22/9/2
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5
06' ZYDRUNAS'.............. 21.9 PER... 0.184 WS/48... 2.1 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 16/8/1 (2 bpg)
90' PIPPEN..................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5
AND 89' PIPPEN WAS MUCH WORSE THAN THIS.... :shocked:
I assume you are congratulating Jordan for being so poor during the regular season his team had to face better teams in the playoffs because they finished with a worse seed.
Weird brag.
Jordan nearly beat the champs with worse personnel than the Cavs had in 2005, or any year from 2005 to 2010.,
The 89' playoff run showed that the Bulls were 0-4 when Jordan failed to score 30, while the 07' Cavs were 8-4, so Jordan's cast was far worse.. Jordan's inferior cast forced him to produce far greater stats in the Eastern Playoffs than Lebron's 07' run, despite facing far superior comp... Furthermore, Lebron's inferior numbers in the 07' Eastern Playoffs didn't include championship comp, while Jordan's superior numbers included the series vs Detroit..
Weird correlation for Duncan is he won Championships in 3 of the seasons the assist percentage was below 51% (He only had 5 of them).
Then in the other 15 years he won 2 Championships, including none in his top 5.
I mean I'm no rocket brain scientist, but it would appear that Duncan being highly assisted as the main option is actually a bad thing.
You too appear to have missed the point. Simple question. Why did Jordan have to play better teams in the playoffs that year?
I'll even help you. Fill in the blanks.
MJ had to play better teams because his team has a worse s_ _ d than Iverson and LeBron's teams".
.
.
4 WAYS THAT CONFIRM LEBRON CANNOT ADJUST HIS STYLE TO FIT A BALL MOVEMENT SYSTEM, AKA "DYNASTY-BALL":
1) ball movement systems don't use low-assisted players that have assisted rates below 40%, which is why Luka, Lebron and all low-assisted 1st options in history have never run a ball movement system
2) In the entire history of high-scoring point guard-style players that includes Lebron, Luka, Westbrook, Harden and SGA - none have ever run a ball movement system in their combined 60+ year careers - these systems just aren't run with ball-dominators
3) Lebron has the longest list of bad fits in history, which proves that he cannot adjust his style - i.e. big men fit great with ball-handlers, so Lebron he would've simply morphed into his Karl Malone or AD-mode to fit with other ballhandlers instead of having friction and underachievement with Westbrook, D-Lo, Ingram, Hughes, IT, Rose, Wade or other ball-handlers.
4) The math says that ball-dominators cannot run ball movement because their high volume of unassisted buckets leave teammates standing around in spot-up roles, which lowers teammates' assist and literally prevents high assist teams and great ball movement
But carry on in ignorance by lapping up the falsehoods and propaganda that you hear on TV if you chose - it's a free country...
You too appear to have missed the point. Simple question. Why did Jordan have to play better teams in the playoffs that year?
I'll even help you. Fill in the blanks.
MJ had to play better teams because his team has a worse s_ _ d than Iverson and LeBron's teams".
Lebron never carried a low seed in the playoffs - ever - he had 3 years to develop a high seed before entering his first playoffs, so he didn't have a low seed until 2021 (1st round loss).
Ultimately, Mj had a bigger carry-job by carrying a bad team, while Lebron and Iverson had with high seeds of decorated veterans vs weaker comp
So you're the one avoiding the obvious that Jordan's 89' run was a far bigger carry-job than Lebron, Iverson, Kidd or Dwight's runs in the worst conference ever (00's East) - that's when 1-star teams routinely won the conference, while the 80's East required a super-team to win it... Lebron only needed 25/7/6 in the 07' East Playoffs, which would be the worst series of Jordan's career, while Jordan needed 40/6/8 to get upsets in the first 2 rounds over the #1 and #6 SRS teams.
Good to see you can't fill in two letters.
I'm not sure why you think that series was worse than Jordan's 27/5/4 on 41% shooting series was so much better than LeBron's series.
Weird correlation for Duncan is he won Championships in 3 of the seasons the assist percentage was below 51% (He only had 5 of them).
Then in the other 15 years he won 2 Championships, including none in his top 5.
I mean I'm no rocket brain scientist, but it would appear that Duncan being highly assisted as the main option is actually a bad thing.
First of all, the numbers speak for themselves because when Duncan had a 50% assisted rate in 03' and 05', the Spurs had low team assists, but when his assisted rate increased to 66% in 13' and 14', the Spurs were #1 in assists.. So there's a correlation between higher assisted rates for the 1st option and team assists.
Secondly, it's great that the lowest-assisted 1st option on a dynasty that you could find still had about a 50% assisted rate... This makes my point that dynasties only have good assisted rates at 1st option and never low-assisted rates - it's the players with LOW assisted rate (ball-dominators) that prevents the extra capability of having a high-assist teams, or employing that style when needed to win.
Btw, it's pretty cool for my argument that arguably the greatest ball movement team ever (Spurs) is the only possible "exception" to the notion that all dynasties are higher assist teams - it's a pretty good exception to have, and we see that Duncan wasn't all that highly-assisted on some of his runs, which explains the exception... To summarize - all dynasties have the capability of high-assist teams by virtue of not being dragged down by low-assisted players with a bunch of unassisted buckets.... And the only exception to the notion that all dynasties have high-assist teams is the perhaps the greatest ball movement team of all-time (Spurs), yet even they exhibit great ball movement statistically through various seasons with top rankings in assists, and also good ranking average over the long-term.
I'm not sure why you think that series was worse than Jordan's 27/5/4 on 41% shooting series was so much better than LeBron's series.
Finals
96' Jordan........... 27 on 53.8 TS..... 3.0 tov... 18.5 gmsc
07' Lebron.......... 22 on 42.8 TS..... 5.8 tov... 10.6 gmsc
Jordan had the best true shooting of any starter in the series outside of Kemp, Longley and Hawkins, while being the best player in the series that got a 3-0 lead with 31 on 46%..
Otoh, Lebron played the worst that anyone ever played in a series with 6 TO's per game and 35.6% shooting.
Lebron did this twice in 07' and 08', so he had a lone exception in 09' amongst a sea of debacles in 07', 08', and 10' - he simply couldn't compete viably against Finals competition teams until 2012 when he faced babies and then almost choked in 2013 - so he was never a great performer in the Finals tbh... He averaged 16 on 39% for the first 3 games to get a 1-2 deficit that required Ray Allen to force game 7.. He averaged 23 on 43% thru 6 games before Ray's save, and the Heat didn't win with Lebron on the floor in the series (zero plus-minus).. Again, Lebron was never a great championship performer.
.
.
COMPARING THE EASTERN RUNS OF 01' IVERSON, 07' LEBRON AND 89' JORDAN
BURDEN
COMP
CAST
# of players that were top 75 in PPG on the 16 playoff teams in 1989
.
.
The 89' East had the best record ever vs the West, while the 01' and 07' East had among the worst:
Yet Jordan carried za bigger load against this better comp:
First of all, the numbers speak for themselves because when Duncan had a 50% assisted rate in 03' and 05', the Spurs had low team assists, but when his assisted rate increased to 66% in 13' and 14', the Spurs were #1 in assists.. So there's a correlation between higher assisted rates for the 1st option and team assists.
Secondly, it's great that the lowest-assisted 1st option on a dynasty that you could find still had about a 50% assisted rate... This makes my point that dynasties only have good
None of the above makes any sense and is not a reasonable interpretation of what was provided.
But good work as always.
Finals
96' Jordan........... 27 on 53.8 TS..... 3.0 tov... 18.5 gmsc
07' Lebron.......... 22 on 42.8 TS..... 5.8 tov... 10.6 gmsc
Jordan had the best true shooting of any starter in the series outside of Kemp, Longley and Hawkins, while being the best player in the series that got a 3-0 lead with 31 on 46%..
Otoh, Lebron played the worst that anyone ever played in a series with 6 TO's per game and 35.6% shooting.
Lebron did this twice in 07' and 08', so he had a lone exception in 09' amongst a sea o
MJ had an EFG% of 43% (good for 12th best in the series). For the GOAT scorer. That's terrible. You know that right?
Anyway, maybe it's just me, but I have higher expectations for the 4 x MVP MJ, than the 22 year old LeBron.
But your pure hatred for LeBron is so strong you would have the same expectations.
And the numbers show that 96' Jordan was vastly superior to 07' Lebron or 11' Lebron in the Finals, so Jordan's worst Finals beats young Lebron or prime Lebron..
Furthermore, when they were 22 or 23-year old, Jordan was goat against the 86' and 87' Celtics, while Lebron was worst-ever against the 07' Spurs and 08' Celtics, or the 11' Mavs at 26 years old..
Accordingly, all our analysis shows that Lebron literally stinks at basketball compared to the GOAT - he had weaker carry-jobs as shown a few posts ago (89' vs 07'), while everyone outperformed him such as young Jordan, or 20-year old Magic (FMVP), or 22-year Amare averaged 37 on 55% against the 05' Spurs.... So Lebron's performance is worse than a lot of guys and he's simply manufactured by the NBA via collusions with opponents (and still mostly lost with every cast).
None of the above makes any sense and is not a reasonable interpretation of what was provided.
You were wrong about the Pistons being a dynasty, and also the 60's Celtics not having comparable assist ranks to other dynasties, so your only possible exception to the rule that dynasties are associated with higher assist teams is the Spurs, who are arguably the greatest ball movement team in history..
Ultimately, the original point remains that every dynasty in history was led by a highly-assisted 1st option, which allowed the extra capability of high-assist teams, i.e. seasons with top assist rankings and higher average rank over the long term.
Since low-assisted scorers like Luka and Lebron cannot produce high team assist capability that dynasties require, they're inferior to the best players from high-assisted skillsets that can.
.
.
.
Just a reminder that here's the response to "b-b-but this team had high assists and lost":
Not every team with capability for high assists will be a dynasty, but every dynasty will have capability for high assists... This capability includes a highly-assisted 1st option that allows high-assist teams, various seasons with top assist rankings, and higher average ranking over the long term.
Since low-assisted scorers like Luka and Lebron cannot produce high assist capability that dynasties require, they're inferior to the best players from high-assisted skillsets that CAN produce the best basketball (dynasties).
Every team has the “capability” for high assists. The Houston Rockets with James Harden were 3rd in the league in team assists (basically tied for second; they were 7 assists total behind the Denver Nuggets) in 2016-17 with James Harden having an assisted fg% of 18% and averaging 29.1 points. This is the most “ball dominant” player/offense/circumstance ever yet they were still third (nearly second) in the league in assists.
This is where you are going to argue that this was a “one off and does not count”, but then you’ve also argued the Spurs having low assist totals yet winning rings doesn’t count. And somehow since they have had seasons where they don’t win rings but had high assist totals makes them have “capability” for high assists. Just like Harden’s Rockets. So I’ll encourage you now, ahead of time, to look up what the word “capability” means.
Your arguments do not work in any capacity nor in any circumstance. They apply to anything and any team so they have no differentiating power between good and bad teams. It’s like saying the sky is blue therefore Kobe Bryant is good. The sky is blue anyway dumbass, and it has nothing to do with dynasties and it’s not the super secret statistic to winning basketball. Ffs assisted fg% had a negative correlation with wins last year. You quite literally cannot be any more wrong in any kind of statistical, formal sense, yet here you are still arguing the same thing.
You crave attention like I’ve never seen in my entire life and are completely incapable of admitting you are wrong. In fact you’ll post thousands upon thousands of posts on random internet basketball forums arguing total nonsense instead of saying you were wrong. Have you ever seen a psychologist about this? It’s extreme and it has to affect your ability to function in life. I’ve honest to god never seen anything like it. I think if you got some serious help it would benefit your life greatly in general. I’m not joking about that.
fallguy, sorting through millions of combinations of stats related to assisted fg% on bballref, so he can move the goalposts for the thousandth time.
“The sky has the capability of being blue, and water does not (it is more aquamarine, while the sky is the only thing capable of true blue), therefore LeBron James is bad. Here are random basketball reference stats in different colors.”
This is the level of dumbass nut job we are at now.
Here are a bunch of teams with multiple elite players and elite coaching. And the sky is blue. Therefore as you can see the capability of the sky being blue is the requirement for winning basketball dynasties. Also here are some gifs of me dribbling behind my back and scoring on 14 year olds.
There fallguy. I wrote your next 10 posts for you and you don’t have to post anymore.
.
.
CORRECTED LINKS
TEAM ASSIST RANKINGS FOR ALL PLAYERS WITH HIGH VOLUME OF UNASSISTED BUCKETS (OVER 25 PPG AND LESS THAN 40% ASSISTED RATE), SINCE 1997:
2002 Kobe Bryant................ 9th in team assists
2003 Tracy McGrady............ 21st in team assists
2005 Tracy McGrady............ 16th in team assists
2006 Dwayne Wade............. 17th in team assists
2007 Dwayne Wade............. 18th in team assists
2008 Dwayne Wade............. 24th in team assists
2009 Dwayne Wade............. 18th in team assists
2010 Dwayne Wade............. 28th in team assists
2011 Dwayne Wade............. 26th in team assists
2005 Gilbert Arenas............. 28th in team assists
2006 Gilbert Arenas............. 25th in team assists
2007 Gilbert Arenas............. 23rd in team assists
2005 Kobe Bryant................ 22nd in team assists
2009 Kobe Bryant................ 2nd in team assists
2004 Allen Iverson............... 23rd in team assists
2005 Allen Iverson............... 21st in team assists
2006 Allen Iverson............... 18th in team assists
2007 Allen Iverson............... 21st in team assists
2008 Allen Iverson............... 3rd in team assists
2000 Grant Hill..................... 23rd in team assists
2010 Monta Ellis.................. 5th in team assists
2011 Derrick Rose................ 9th in team assists
2013 Carmelo....................... 30th in team assists
2014 Carmelo....................... 28th in team assists
2015 Westbrook................... 25th in team assists
2017 Westbrook................... 25th in team assists
2018 Westbrook................... 28th in team assists
2020 Westbrook................... 29th in team assists
2013 Harden......................... 6th in team assists
2014 Harden......................... 18th in team assists
2015 Harden.......................... 9th in team assists
2016 Harden.......................... 16th in team assists
2017 Harden.......................... 3rd in team assists
2018 Harden.......................... 26th in team assists
2019 Harden.......................... 28th in team assists
2020 Harden.......................... 29th in team assists
2016 Lillard............................ 21st in team assists
2017 Lillard............................ 23rd in team assists
2018 Lillard............................ 30th in team assists
2019 Lillard............................ 25th in team assists
2020 Lillard............................ 30th in team assists
2021 Lillard............................ 30th in team assists
2023 Lillard............................ 22nd in team assists
2017 Isiaih Thomas.............. 4th in team assists
2017 Demar Derozan........... 30th in team assists
2019 Kemba Walker.............. 24th in team assists
2020 Luka Doncic.................. 14th in team assists
2021 Luka Doncic.................. 26th in team assists
2022 Luka Doncic.................. 25th in team assists
2023 Luka Doncic.................. 28th in team assists
2024 Luka Doncic.................. 19th in team assists
2025 Luka Doncic.................. 18th in team assists
2020 Trae Young................... 17th in team assists
2021 Trae Young................... 19th in team assists
2022 Trae Young................... 15th in team assists
2023 Trae Young................... 18th in team assists
2024 Trae Young................... 16th in team assists
2017 Kyrie Irving................... 13th in team assists
2020 Kyrie Irving................... 15th in team assists
2021 Kyrie Irving................... 7th in team assists
2022 Kyrie Irving................... 10th in team assists
2023 Kyrie Irving................... 28th in team assists
2024 Kyrie Irving................... 19th in team assists
2021 Donovan Mitchell........ 23rd in team assists
2022 Donovan Mitchell........ 27th in team assists
2023 Donovan Mitchell........ 19th in team assists
2024 Donovan Mitchell........ 8th in team assists
2021 D'Aaron Fox.................. 12th in team assists
2023 D'Aaron Fox...................3rd in team assists
2024 D'Aaron Fox.................. 7th in team assists
2025 D'Aaron Fox.................. 15th in team assists
2022 Ja Morant...................... 6th in team assists
2023 Ja Morant...................... 9th in team assists
2024 Ja Morant...................... 27th in team assists
2023 Shai-Gilgeous............... 21st in team assists
2024 Shai-Gilgeous............... 11th in team assists
2025 Shai-Gilgeous............... 14th in team assists
2024 Jalen Brunson.............. 29th in team assists
2025 Jalen Brunson.............. 9th in team assists*
2024 Anthony Edwards........ 15th in team assists
2006 Lebron.......................... 24th in team assists
2007 Lebron.......................... 15th in team assists
2008 Lebron.......................... 25th in team assists
2009 Lebron.......................... 20th in team assists
2010 Lebron.......................... 6th in team assists
2011 Lebron.......................... 26th in team assists
2012 Lebron.......................... 21st in team assists
2015 Lebron.......................... 10th in team assists
2016 Lebron.......................... 13th in team assists
2017 Lebron.......................... 13th in team assists
2018 Lebron.......................... 12th in team assists
2019 Lebron.......................... 11th in team assists
2020 Lebron.......................... 10th in team assists
2021 Lebron.......................... 15th in team assists
2022 Lebron.......................... 17th in team assists
^^^^ 18.3 is the average team assist ranking for "ball-dominators", which are players with high volume of unassisted buckets (25+ ppg and less than 40% assisted rate).
TEAM ASSIST RANKINGS FOR EVERY 25 PPG SCORER WITH 50% OR MORE ASSISTED RATE, SINCE 1997:
1997 Jordan...................... 2nd in team assists
1997 Mitch Richmond..... 14th in team assists
1997 Glen Rice.................. 4th in team assists
1997 Shaq......................... 11th in team assists
1997 Malone..................... 1st in team assists
1998 Jordan....................... 7th in team assists
1998 Shaq......................... 4th in team assists
1998 Malone..................... 2nd in team assists
1999 Shaq.......................... 7th in team assists
2000 Shaq.......................... 10th in team assists
2000 Vince Carter.............. 6th in team assists
2000 Allen Iverson............ 17th in team assists
2000 Malone...................... 3rd in team assists
2001 Shaq.......................... 9th in team assists
2001 Jerry Stackhouse...... 24th in team assists
2001 Vince Carter.............. 3rd in team assists
2001 Webber...................... 10th in team assists
2001 Pierce........................ 19th in team assists
2002 Shaq.......................... 9th in team assists
2002 Duncan..................... 27th in team assists
2002 Pierce........................ 20th in team assists
2003 Shaq......................... 5th in team assists
2003 Dirk........................... 9th in team assists
2005 Stoudamire.............. 3rd in team assists
2005 Dirk........................... 26th in team assists
2006 Dirk........................... 29th in team assists
2006 Ray Allen.................. 15th in team assists
2006 Michael Redd........... 8th in team assists
2006 Carmelo.................... 3rd in team assists
2007 Pierce........................ 25th in team assists
2007 Carmelo................... 5th in team assists
2007 Michael Redd........... 12th in team assists
2007 Yao Ming................... 16th in team assists
2007 Vince Carter.............. 3rd in team assists
2008 Carmelo................... 3rd in team assists
2008 Stoudamire............... 1st in team assists
2009 Durant...................... 20th in team assists
2009 Danny Granger....... . 9th in team assists
2009 Dirk............................ 8th in team assists
2010 Dirk............................ 3rd in team assists
2010 Monta Ellis................ 5th in team assists
2010 Durant....................... 23rd in team assists
2011 Stoudamire............... 15th in team assists
2011 Durant....................... 24th in team assists
2012 Kevin Love................. 24th in team assists
2013 Durant....................... 21st in team assists
2014 Kevin Love................. 5th in team assists
2015 Durant........................ 25th in team assists
2016 Durant........................ 10th in team assists
2016 Curry........................... 1st in team assists
2016 Cousins....................... 4th in team assists
2017 Cousins....................... 16th in team assists
2017 AD................................ 12th in team assists
2017 Durant......................... 1st in team assists
2017 Curry........................... 1st in team assists
2017 Karl Anthony.............. 9th in team assists
2018 Cousins....................... 3rd in team assists
2018 AD................................ 3rd in team assists
2018 Durant........................ 1st in team assists
2018 Curry........................... 1st in team assists
2019 Curry........................... 1st in team assists
2019 AD................................ 3rd in team assists
2019 Embiid......................... 4th in team assists
2019 Bradley Beal............... 6th in team assists
2020 AD................................ 10th in team assists
2020 Karl-Anthony.............. 20th in team assists
2021 Jokic............................. 5th in team assists
2021 Durant......................... 7th in team assists
2021 Curry............................ 1st in team assists
2021 Embiid......................... 22nd in team assists
2021 Zion............................. 10th in team assists
2022 Jokic............................. 3rd in team assists
2022 Durant......................... 10th in team assists
2022 Curry............................ 5th in team assists
2022 Embiid......................... 21st in team assists
2023 Julius Randle............... 28th in team assists
2023 Durant......................... 13th in team assists
2023 Curry............................ 1st in team assists
2023 Embiid......................... 16th in team assists
2023 Zion............................. 11th in team assists
2023 Jaylen Brown............. 7th in team assists
2023 Markkenan................ 10th in team assists
2023 AD................................ 15th in team assists
2024 Jokic............................. 3rd in team assists
2024 Durant......................... 12th in team assists
2024 Curry............................ 4th in team assists
2024 Embiid......................... 24th in team assists
10.2 average for high-scorers that have high assisted rates, and 18.3 average for high-scorers with low-assisted rates.
.
.
Every team has the “capability” for high assists. The Houston Rockets with James Harden were 3rd in the league in team assists (basically tied for second; they were 7 assists total behind the Denver Nuggets) in 2016-17 with James Harden having an assisted fg% of 18% and averaging 29.1 points. This is the most “ball dominant” player/offense/circumstance ever yet they were still third (nearly second) in the league in assists.
This is where you are going to argue that this was a “one off and does no
5 of 96 (5.2%),,,, That's how often a low-assisted 1st option produced a top 5 assist team since assisted rate began tracking in 1997.. (25 ppg or more).
This low level of team assist capability is why dynasties have never been led by low-assisted 1st options.... Instead, every dynasty was led by highly-assisted 1st options that allowed much higher assist capability, such as top 5 teams 39% of the time (34 of 87).
Dynasties require max capability, which includes capability for elite ball movement, but the dynastic ball movement of the Spurs, Warriors or 90's Bulls isn't reflected in a gimmicky, one-off season - it's reflected in numerous seasons of top assist rankings and solid average ranking over the long-term.. Only a highly-assisted 1st option allows this, and that's all dynasties ever used..
Ultimately, low-assisted 1st options (ball-dominators) are still looking for their first dynasty, or even a dominant championship run tbh.. They perennially-lose, or win by the skin of their teeth, or a lucky draw.. Their skillset inherently lacks the brand of ball (ball movement and team assist capability) for the best basketball (dynasties).
