LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
By engaging me on the argument, you lost... You should not have posted.
Ball-dominators don't produce the best basketball - 12 of 12 demotes the entire player-type
FYI “winning” or “losing” an argument is based on logical correctness of the argument and the facts that back them up. I’ve had an acquaintance that thought he “won” arguments simply by virtue of someone engaging him. He had diagnosed narcissistic personality disorder. Basically, a loser that could not admit he was a loser so he developed a defense mechanism such that he believed he could not be wrong. Tough mental illness, and I wish you luck.
I think he meant that just talking to FG makes you a bit of a loser. He may have a point.
I think he meant that just talking to FG makes you a bit of a loser. He may have a point.
Ok, you got me there… or maybe? I actually sprung the double reverse trap on fallguy!
LeBron James assisted fg% in 2015-16, the year they won the title by beating the team with the best regular season record of all time = 40.4%
Jayson Tatum assisted fg % in 2023-24 = 40.0%
We pulled a double reverse fugazi and fallguy fell for it hook, line, and sinker!
Just kidding, fallguy’s whole life is a fugazi and he’s a ****ing lunatic. (Though it will be a never ending source of amusement to see how he will be able to lie and distort this one into being “right”.)
I think he meant that just talking to FG makes you a bit of a loser. He may have a point.
No seriously guys.
Thanks for helping me vet the data.
especially Matt for coming through at the top of the page as planned, just like I knew he would, thereby letting me know for certain that you guys have been reading my posts and understand all the arguments that I've been making, and agree.
Ok, you got me there… or maybe? I actually sprung the double reverse trap on fallguy!
LeBron James assisted fg% in 2015-16, the year they won the title by beating the team with the best regular season record of all time = 40.4%
Jayson Tatum assisted fg % in 2023-24 = 40.0%
We pulled a double reverse fugazi and fallguy fell for it hook, line, and sinker!
Just kidding, fallguy’s whole life is a fugazi and he’s a ****ing lunatic. (Though it will be a never ending source of amusement t
Don't feel bad that Lebron couldn't average 1 loss per round like dominant champions do because there's never been a low-assisted player that produced a dominant champion like this, OR a dynasty.
Accordingly, the entire player-type is demoted for being unable to produce the best basketball (dominant champs or dynasties).
This is why I have the best ball-dominators behind the best jumpshooters and bigs in my all-time rankings - the first ball-dominators appear at 11, 12 and 13 with Magic, Lebron and Oscar.
Prediction: when LeBron James has an assisted fg% of 40.4% it is lowly assisted, ball dominant, and a bad brand of basketball. When Jayson Tatum has an assisted fg% of 40.0% it is highly assisted and is the best brand of ball leading to dynasties.
Damnit, I was a few minutes late on that one. Can’t win em all I guess.
Did fallguy admit he was wrong or did he lie and move the goalposts? Oh look he lied and moved the goalposts. I knocked that one out of the park. Personality disorders are super predictable actually.
Anyway, hope that new medication continues to help you out fallguy. Later tater.
Prediction: when LeBron James has an assisted fg% of 40.4% it is lowly assisted, ball dominant, and a bad brand of basketball. When Jayson Tatum has an assisted fg% of 40.0% it is highly assisted and is the best brand of ball leading to dynasties.
Lebron didn't produce a "dominant champion" in 2016 that averaged 1 loss per round or less.
This is because 8 of 8 dominant champions required highly-assisted 1st options that are capable of 50 and 60% assisted rates, so a career ball-dominator that peaks at 40% and spends a career in the 30's simply lacks the assisted skill to have a dominant champion.. Again, ball-dominators have a level of assisted rate that has never produced dominant champions or dynasties.
Otoh, Tatum produced a dominant champion because his skillset is the highly-assisted type required of 1st options on dominant teams (and dynasties).
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Since possession data began in 1997:
4 of 4 "dynasties" that mostly won for a material stretch of 5+ years (i.e. 3 in 5) had highly-assisted players at 1st option:
JORDAN.............. highly-assisted player
SHAQ.................. highly-assisted player
DUNCAN............. highly-assisted player
CURRY................. highly-assisted player
8 of 8 "dominant champions" (4 losses or less on playoff run, aka 1 loss per round average) had highly-assisted players at 1st option:
17' DURANT......... highly-assisted player
01' SHAQ.............. highly-assisted player
99' DUNCAN........ highly-assisted player
24' TATUM............ highly-assisted player
23' JOKIC.............. highly-assisted player
02' SHAQ.............. highly-assisted player
07' DUNCAN........ highly-assisted player
97' JORDAN.......... highly-assisted player
TLDR: 12 of 12 instances of the best basketball (dynasties or dominant champions) required highly-assisted 1st options with 40% assisted rate or higher and proven capability for 50's or 60's.
Otoh, low-assisted 1st options like Luka, SGA, Harden, Lillard, Wall, Lebron, etc. have never been the 1st option on a dynasty or dominant champion, so they cannot produce the best basketball... Low-assisted 1st options have a high volume of unassisted buckets that hinders ball movement, while highly-assisted 1st options produce higher-assist teams and foster the great ball movement that every dynasty has.
I meant that Matt's debate strategy was bad because his effort to find exceptions concedes that the argument itself would otherwise be correct... He refuted the argument by saying "5 losses is too much - it should be 4 and therefore 1 loss per round"..
This is a good point by Matt, and he's been a great helper in vetting this ground-breaking analysis.
The original point is now stronger that "ball-dominators" or low-assisted 1st options never produced the best basketball - this includes dynasties and also dominant champions that averaged 1 loss per round or less... Since they never produced the best basketball (0 for 12), they're demoted in the all-time rankings.
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Even if Fallguy was actually right about everything, the obsessive commitment sacrificing his life to the cause wouldn't be any less sad to watch.
I think the fact he hasn't been able to convince one person would be enough to make me stop.
I wonder if it clicks that every forum he has ever been on finds his posts terrible. Whether they be Jordan or LeBron-stans.
I wish we had kept a "best of"...
I think my all time favourite is Pippen < Knecht, and Pippen < Insert random bench player
I think the fact he hasn't been able to convince one person would be enough to make me stop.
It's obvious that the reason you've posted that same delusion a million times is to comfort yourself that I've solved the debate and have all the answers.
I wonder if it clicks that every forum he has ever been on finds his posts terrible.
People agreed with me 10 years ago, but many more agree now, which is why everyone has stopped watching the NBA.
So, you're the reason the NBA rating are down? Man, that's some responsibility you have.
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Since possession data began in 1997:
4 of 4 "dynasties" that mostly won for a material stretch of 5+ years (i.e. 3 in 5) had highly-assisted players at 1st option:
JORDAN.............. highly-assisted player
SHAQ.................. highly-assisted player
DUNCAN............. highly-assisted player
CURRY................. highly-assisted player
8 of 8 "dominant champions" (4 losses or less on playoff run, aka 1 loss per round average) had highly-assisted players at 1st option:
17' DURANT......... highly-assisted player
01' SHAQ.............. highly-assisted player
99' DUNCAN........ highly-assisted player
24' TATUM............ highly-assisted player
23' JOKIC.............. highly-assisted player
02' SHAQ.............. highly-assisted player
07' DUNCAN........ highly-assisted player
97' JORDAN.......... highly-assisted player
TLDR: 12 of 12 instances of the best basketball (dynasties or dominant champions) required highly-assisted 1st options with 40% assisted rate or higher and proven capability for 50's or 60's.
Otoh, low-assisted 1st options like Luka, SGA, Harden, Lillard, Wall, Lebron, etc. have never been the 1st option on a dynasty or dominant champion, so they cannot produce the best basketball... Low-assisted 1st options have a high volume of unassisted buckets that hinders ball movement, while highly-assisted 1st options produce higher-assist teams and foster the great ball movement that every dynasty has.
Do it!!!.. You'll see that everything came true!!!
I think my all time favourite is Pippen < Knecht, and Pippen < Insert random bench player
23-YEAR KNECHT'....... 10.3 on 58.8 TS
23-YEAR PIPPEN''.......... 7.9 on 48.8 TS
^^^ At 23 years old, Pippen was an 8 ppg rookie and below Knecht, yet MJ still won 50 games and was competitive with the Pistons in the playoffs... Both Pippen and Knecht were viewed as having good potential, and Jordan gets the potential out of everyone, so he would win with Knecht.
Everyone grew alongside MJ and achieved highs including Woolridge, Oakley, Sam Vincent, Pippen, Grant and BJ.. The only guy that didn't increase was Kukoc because MJ's return put Kukoc on the bench... This growth by everyone is a stark contrast to the horrible fits that teammates of ball-dominators have, such as Brunson, Porzingas, Bosh, Love, Hughes and Ingram.
It's remarkable that you're in denial about the polar opposite results that ball-dominators have compared to ball movement guys... Ball-dominators have zero teammate development, chemistry and produce perennial losers, while ball movement players like MJ and Curry have great teammate development, chemistry and dynasties.. It's night and day.
So, you're the reason the NBA rating are down? Man, that's some responsibility you have.
Ignoring me for 10 years is why the NBA is now finished.
Now it's too late to take my advice because ratings are already down 50% since Lebron started winning in 2012.
No one wanted to see a colluder... No one wanted to see the easy-scoring format, or load management, or a 3-point contest (not a competition - a contest)...
Ignoring me for 10 years is why the NBA is now finished.
Now it's too late to take my advice because ratings are already down 50% since Lebron started winning in 2012.
No one wanted to see a colluder... No one wanted to see the easy-scoring format, or load management, or a 3-point contest (not a competition - a contest)...
I'm genuinely curious. You seem to have completely ignored the info I posted to show that the NBA is in a pretty good spot. Even my posts showing that if you looked at porn/music in one aspect you would think that they were industries in significant decline (which they aren't), yet your brain can't transfer that across to basketball and that people are digesting it in a different way now.
And I don't think you are a visionary. There have been a lot of people that have spoken out about not liking the 3 point era.
I'm also curious why the 3 point era is even slightly related to LeBron.
I wish we had kept a "best of"...
I think my all time favourite is Pippen < Knecht, and Pippen < Insert random bench player
It’s hard to choose, but I think my favorite is the claim that 40.4% is less than 40.0%. 40.4% is lowly assisted, ball dominant, and the worst brand of ball. 40.0% is highly assisted and the best brand of ball that leads to dynasties.
It’s simple but I really like how direct it is, proving that we are really just dealing with mental illness. The laws of mathematics are no longer valid. Exactly like that actor Terrence Howard that argues 1*1 =2 and refuses to stop.
So, you're the reason the NBA rating are down? Man, that's some responsibility you have.
Sounds like he may have
. He also “played ball” in the Dean Dome and was one of the legendary players that came out of…. Martinsville, Indiana? Or was it Marion? I think he was a successful analyst and real estate mogul too. Something along those lines.
We’re in the presence of greatness. I can’t believe the NBA is in the process of collapsing because they didn’t listen to fallguy. What a tragedy.
I liked the bit where Davis was the man in 2020 because it helped in the case of dominate champions assisted thingy.
Davis did score 0.8ppg more in the regular season, and 0.1ppg in the playoffs which is super-significant. I mean LeBron took more shots, which usually indicates the go-to guy. And he did finish 2nd in the MVP, and won the Finals MVP. But obviously LeBron had nothing to do with how dominate that team was. It was all Davis.
Had the Lakers lost in the Finals though. **** me, LeBron's fault!
"Lebron-fatigue" is actually the biggest reason why the ratings are down - people are not compelled by the media lauding 1st Round losses or WCF sweep-losses as unprecedented and great... 2024 represents the year that people understood media mis-coverage... Everyone can see Lebron losing catastrophically every year and are tired of being told it's great.. 1st Round losses and perennial losing with the best teammate in the league are now ADDITIONS to an alleged "goat case", lol gtfo people don't want to watch this trash get pushed on TV everyday, so they've turned on it like a lot of things we've seen lately.
That's at least half the reason the why the ratings are down.. The other half is playing style issues and gradually-declining competitiveness of the league and players since "the decision" to normalize player-driven team-ups with opposing franchise players.
Lebron's 38 ppg in the 09' ECF was unassisted (33% assisted rate), so he's too ball-dominant at carry-job volume to beat top teams, and therefore needs elite scoring help that can match him - he can't win with secondary producers like Klay, Pau or Pippen that force the 1st option to carry the scoring load and defeat max defensive attention..
Secondary producers like Pau/Klay/Pippen can be successfully carried because Curry, Kobe and Jordan have the expert jump shooting skill required to get 40 while the ball moves, so they can effectively carry the scoring load against top teams to win with less.. This includes winning with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player, as opposed to needing equal-scoring partners and 3 franchise players (super-team).
Davis did score 0.8ppg more in the regular season, and 0.1ppg in the playoffs which is super-significant.
^^^^ So you understand the massive difference between Lebron having equal-scoring partners that attract equal-defensive attention for entire seasons vs. Jordan carrying the scoring and facing max defensive attention in every series..
Lebron's sidekicks were within 2 to 5 ppg in every Finals, or even led him on entire title runs in 11' and 20'.
Let that sink in - Jordans dominance was on a completely different tier, such as defeating max defensive attention (carrying scoring load on championship level) and carrying weak help over top teams (beating top 5 SRS teams with weak scoring & efficiency from sidekick) - Lebron never reached this caliber of carrying...
I liked the bit where Davis was the man in 2020 because it helped in the case of dominate champions assisted thingy.
Matt pointed out that an average of 1 loss per round is intuitive and makes the most sense as the requirement for a "dominant champion", which means 4 losses or less overall... Accordingly, neither Lebron nor AD fulfill this requirement in 16' or 20'.. Furthermore, non-dominant runs of 5 losses allows too many teams to be "dominant" (basically every other year), while also lacking Matt's intuitive requirement of averaging 1 loss per round or less.
With this superior criteria due to Matt's help and vetting, we see that everything stands - 12 of 12 instances of the best basketball (dynasties or dominant champions) required highly-assisted 1st options with 40% assisted rate or higher and proven capability for 50's or 60's (Jordan, Duncan, Shaq, Curry, Durant, Jokic, Tatum).
Otoh, low-assisted 1st options like Luka, SGA, Harden, Lillard, Wall, Lebron, etc. have never been the 1st option on a dynasty or dominant champion, so they cannot produce the best basketball... Low-assisted 1st options have a high volume of unassisted buckets that hinders ball movement, while highly-assisted 1st options produce higher-assist teams and foster the great ball movement that every dynasty has.
