What's a little light cheating among strangers?

yup, confirmed *** ****, 100%.

This is on the dealer and the floor at this point. If I'm another player at the table I'm livid. I'm making them enforce the show one show all rule every single hand until this guy leaves the table or figures out how to protect his hand.

Yeah, good point. If I was at the table my attention would be focused on the player who moved's eyes when the other guy looks at his cards. If I see him peaking I'm calling him out on it immediately while again telling the player to protect his hand.

There's nothing to discuss. A mod stated that putting yourself into a position to see a neighbor's cards and then not telling the rest of the table what you see IS NOT cheating.

I guess I was wrong about the rules. I've been wrong before.

Are you deliberately lying or just ignorant. The mod not NOT say what you claim they said. He said moving to another seat at a poker table, sitting at that seat in a normal manner, and not diverting your eyes from a neighbor is not cheating. Far different from "putting yourself in a position" that would include not sitting in a normal manner.

When someone next to me is sloppy and showing their cards, I simply adjust and make sure to not look in that direction at all. It's not that hard.

My reputation is worth far more to me than an extra couple of pots I might win.

its up to the player to protect their cards idk what everyone is complaining about here

heads up, sure.

at a table with other players, you have an unfair advantage if you don't disclose you've seen their cards every time you do. that is the issue, not your advantage over the player who is being careless with their cards.

ok fair enough. Once or twice I caught a glimpse of cards that I used to my advantage, and I wanted to tell the person after I called with A high, but wasn't sure how the table would react. It was an isolated thing, however. If it was a regular thing like I could see every hand, I think I'd for sure speak up for the benefit of the game.

You're were probably better off not saying anything, cuz if I was there I woulda probably made you give him his money back for steeling it, and idgaf if you think it's within the rules or not, but that's just me.

If you see someone's cards, be a gentleman and stop the action to let him know.

If someone’s flashing(pause) i give em one warning that the cards are potentially being exposed. If they keep doing it after that thats on them

These are usually elderly people or people with handicaps, they shouldn't be taken advantage of.

ok but this wasn't in my case. im gonna just have to disagree that if someones a *competent* player and they flash their cards, that's on them. If it was an elderly person I probably would have spoken up. I didn't say anything because I thought I would take serious bs heat from the table if I did from someone like you. I personally would just start playing face up if the rule 'protect your own cards' doesn't hold.

No you wouldn't have.

Player appears mentally competent. Player appears experienced at poker. Player doesn't look like he can't afford the stakes of the game.
Player was informed on two occasions by his neighbor that his cards are visibile. Conversations included tips on where and how to hold his cards. The whole table heard the conversations.
The whole table could see he was laying his cards on the long edge at 90 degrees, in front of his chip stack, and not always covering them with his hands.

Sure, if you like the guy, feel sorry for the guy, or he seemed mentally incapacitated, you might want to keep telling him over and over how he can protect his hand.

But if he just seems stubborn and is a little bit dislikeable, you can just let him do his thing, and play poker and try to win his chips. The rest of the players at the table should keep their eyes open and speak up at anytime.

I'm there to play poker. Not obligated to give lessons or protect anyone else. That said, I am generally either nice to people in the casino, or very quiet. I don't steal or cheat chips or money from anyone anywhere.

If someone knows the poker rules and should understand the gambling environment that they are in, I'll use whatever infomation they reveal whether they do it intentionally or not. I always watch people's face and hands as they look at their cards, grab their chips, etc. If someone is flashing their cards, I will warn them. Probably even twice. After that, I am not going to do something different than usual and deliberately "look away", or announce it every time I catch a flash of a hole card.
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Here's another illustrative example from that exact table and session. I arrived at the table, and the guy to my left just finished donking off a bunch of chips, 2 hands in a row. He's in his 30's, Asian, kind of a tough guy type, but calm with his losses, seems sort of emotionally unmoved, verballizing all his plays. I post the $5 big blind to enter the game. He has $420 behind and posts a dead $60 under the gun. It folds to me and I raise to $300. He calls. The flop is Ace high and I shove. He calls, and I win with K high. He asks the table if he can Venmo or Zelle anyone $1000 in exchange for cash. Another player jumps out of his seat and walks with him to the ATM. When the player comes back with $1000, he loses it all in less than 1 orbit. Somewhat subdued, but polite, he says "good game" and leaves. (I then move into his seat. because I want any new player on my right.) He seemed mentally competent. But who the hell in their right mind blows money like that? Is he low-key tilted? Or is that money stolen? He didn't look rich. I mean there must have been something off with that guy. But everyone at the table was ok with taking his money. I was. Gambling at poker is not a noble activity. Play at your own risk.

This is really the only point of dispute.

Cash game rules used to be based on RRoP, but now many rooms use TDA as the basis for even their cash rules. Both of them have something like this to say, but only specifically about tournaments:

So, in a TDA tournament, or a game played under TDA rules that include that line, yes you are obligated to protect everyone else. But whether that applies to a normal cash game in your room is certainly significantly less clear.

It is certainly clear that if you were taking active measures to try to sneak looks at your neighbors' cards, that is often considered to be actively cheating. Not saying that's what was happening here, but just making a point that doing so is clearly not in the letter or spirit of the rules. In any room I run you get 86ed permanently for this.

There are cash game rules requiring players to protect their own hands. There are rules about etiquette, but none of them cover this specific point (a player failing to protect their hand while looking at their own hole cards, and giving one or more other players access to seeing them). At a minimum, if a floor becomes aware that a player is not protecting their own hands in this way, they should instruct the player to do better, and if they do not then that player should be removed because they are causing the problem.

So in the end it's probably going to come down to personal etiquette at some point for many people and many rooms.

For me, if you warn someone a few times, you've certainly done your duty with them, unless they have some handicap or accommodation that needs to be made. (I will personally try to look away because I am there to have fun, not to gain every dollar I can by any means possible, but to each his own.) But if you're also in the hand with other players, you're not just using that info against the one careless player, you're actually using it against all the other remaining players. That is, to me, cheating us. Depending on my mood and the table dynamics, if I am there and see you doing it, I may well agitate loudly with the table, or with the floor or shift mgr against you. Perhaps you're fine with that. But for most people it's going to make things a lot worse for them (which is honestly the whole point).

JMHO anyway.

LOL at someone trying to judge from afar what it means to "sit in a normal manner," as if that is even a poker rule.

I'm neither lying nor ignorant.

Sociopaths are gonna sociopath.

If I could tell that player A saw player B's cards, and both I and player A are in the hand, before my next action I am going to demand to also see player B's cards (whether or not player B is still in the hand). Show one show all, ASAP, and regardless of whether or not the cards were deliberately shown. It doesn't matter if player A is deliberately looking or not. If that is not done for me, every single time, I'm calling the floor, and explaining everything. If I am not given the same advantage as player A, I'm getting up from the table and filing a complaint with whoever is higher than the floor on duty.

ive been in the 7 seat at a table with a drunk dude at the 2 seat holding his cards in the air for 1 and 3 to see. He was asked numerous times to protect his hand but just couldnt. He was even told by his opponent "i know what you have" and dude went allin anyway. He kept going north by about 50-100BB's between hands so nobody was trying to stop him and I didnt have the heart to kill the vibe so I just removed myself from the table since I cant let myself get buttfked with 2 people trapping him for stacks.

This is one of the things I struggle with a lot.

I am a very observant person. I have really good peripheral vision. I am great at detecting movement at the fringes of my vision while focused elsewhere. I just naturally pay attention to everything that is going on around me. My wife often makes fun of me and calls me paranoid because when we are out at a restaurant I will be aware of everything going on. To the point of absurdity.

However, my actual eyesight is horrible. It was never great when I was younger, but as I have aged it has gotten far worse. Even with glasses.

As a result, I am aware of a lot, but I can't see crap.

So I will often see flashes of cards, but I cannot tell exactly what they are. I will see red or black and that is it. Or paint. Or a medium card somewhere between a 6 and a 10.

My desire is to be as honest and fair with everyone else at the table as possible, but my poor eyesight often leaves me looking silly if I speak up. If the player to my right looks at his cards and I see a flash of one of his cards and I think I see a medium card, speaking up usually results in an awkward conversation. I will tell the player he flashed a card. That part is fine. Then I feel I should tell the rest of the table what I think I saw if I am continuing in the hand.

This means announcing that I think I saw a medium card. That mostly draws eyerolls or comments from the dealer about it being it being too vague. I also feel like it will often make people feel uncomfortable, like I am intentionally cheating and looking at other players cards.

So I always have to think twice about speaking up. Am I sure what I saw, how much can I narrow it down, etc. I don't want to have information others do not have, but I also do not want to make drama.

To be fair, it has cost me money as well. $2/$5 early player raises to $25. Late player calls. I am big blind. As small blind is looking at their cards I think I see a black 8. It might be a 7 or a 9 (or even a 6 or 10), but I think it is an 8. He calls.

I have Ad8d.

I think for a bit, I really want to call (it is a very loose table filled with players who will overplay hands postflop). I go back and forth. I think the small blind has an 8 and even if he doesn't he probably has lessened my straight outs. I also am probably dominated by either the initial raiser or late caller. I think about calling and just looking for a flush hoping to catch a smaller flush overplaying their hand.

Ultimately I fold. I think that by folding, I don't have to worry about the conflict of interest I have by potentially knowing one of the small blinds cards. I am no longer in the hand.

Of course the flop comes 88A. Early raiser has AK, late caller has AQ. Small blind has the 8. All of the money goes in from all three players. Obviously I would have won the huge pot.

Yea for folding because you didn't want be bothered by mentioning you might have seen one card in another players hand.

So you believe that if you claim to think player A saw player Bs cards player B must expose their cards to everyone? Do that to me and I'd claim that every hand against you.

I have also had players use my speaking up as a bluff.

As a player next to me looks at his cards I see black paint. He calls. I announce to the table that I saw black paint, probably either a K or J (queens are distinctive as female but I am not really sure what i saw beyond paint).

I call. Flop comes up JJx. Someone else folds. Player calls, I fold. On the turn the player check raises and convinces his opponent to fold. Player then shows a black queen and red 10).

Now everyone wonders if we are working together somehow.

Everyone would know that I wasn't exposing my cards, unlike the guy in the OP.